LE Trade Ins - Carried a lot shot very little

I have a number of S&W 3rd Gen Police trade-ins, and am an LEO. I read constantly on this forum and others how police trades in are "carried a lot but shot very little". It's almost an obligatory post when someone talks about an ex-LEO sidearm. My last purchase was a Cleveland Ohio PD marked 5943. I would guess it has around 10,000 rounds or so through it. But I easily rebuilt it with new springs and few other parts and now she's a smooth shooter (and probably was before the upgrade, I will never know).

So what do all these people consider to be "shot very little"? When I traded off my department's Glock 17s they each had anywhere from 15,000-25,000 rounds through them of academy and agency ammo (standard pressure, +p and +p+). I could not guess how much they were shot with personal ammo. I know my issue gun easily surpassed the 30,000-35,000 round tally. To me that is not carried a lot and shot very little, its carried a lot and shot a lot. But even focusing on the people in my agency who are not gun people, they will still push a solid 15,000+ rounds or more down range before their sidearm is traded off for a new one. To me 5,000 rounds is shot very little (it's also about double what I consider to be the break in point). How about you?

I see that comment allot with sellers on GB. However, I have picked up LE trade-in's that actually do fit that description. Barely any wear on the outside and inside. For me, I look at the recoil spring and barrel for normal wear. And the breach face. That is how I will come to a decision on whether or not it has been shot allot. Now I will tell you I have an LE trade in of a 4003 that has definitely been carried allot and shot allot because the trigger is really smooth. I compare it to my original owner 5906, which I have put thousands of rounds down range since I purchased it new.

IMHO that's a sales technique used by resellers and a rather inane comment used by buyers to make themselves feel better about their purchase. (just like the absurd "it shoots better than I do") Most range commandos naturally assume cop guns aren't shot that much.

Unless documentation can be provided by the department as to how many rounds have been fired there's simply no way to tell. Some may show obvious signs of wear, while others to a much lesser degree, but "carried a lot and shot a little" is an erronious assumption.

I would compare LE guns to old LE cars. Well used but very well maintained. Can't go wrong with both!

Trooper224 said:

IMHO that's a sales technique used by resellers and a rather inane comment used by buyers to make themselves feel better about their purchase. (just like the absurd "it shoots better than I do") Most range commandos naturally assume cop guns aren't shot that much.

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They also use the term NO RESERVE but the starting bid is $600.

4864 said:

I would compare LE guns to old LE cars. Well used but very well maintained. Can't go wrong with both!

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That maybe the case where you come from. I wouldn't buy either after my agency is finished with them. Both are worn out when we are done with them.

Used Police vehicles are some of the most beat down run 24/7 vehicles on the road. The maintenace in many dept's is non existent and I know cops don't spend their own money on oill. washing, tires etc etc. I would never buy a used dep't vehicle. Just my humble opinion.

I would guess that departments are like the public @ large.You have some that only take thier gun out of its holster the week before qualifying and qualifying day and you have those who come to the range at least 2 times a week and will put 100 rounds downrange a session.I was told our State Police change oil every week and new tires every month and our local police have some units that have been in accidents and are still on the road.To me a 3rd gen S+W with 10k rounds thru the pipe and properly matained would be ideal because it is nicely broken in and the trigger is smooth.Just my 2 cents....Mike

I've bought myself quite a collection of 'police trade' firearms.

Some of these guns really do seem used but little...and carried a bunch. Others are pretty well used period.

Some of my 'trade' guns have come from overseas, and look heavily used and abused.

The last leo trade in gun I bought is a Ruger Mini 14. It really does appear to be lightly used.....and it's about 30 years old.

Keep in mind that back in the late 80's and 90's, when S&W 3rd gen pistols were popular with law enforcement, departments switched out their pistol inventories more often than in todays austere fiscal environment.

We always had LNIB spares in inventory too. Those spares went with all the carried alot (and with a few exceptions ) shot very little guns back to S&W for resale.

I've bought several 3rd generation police trades that could not possibly have 1000 rounds through them. Most have a "U" stamp by the mag release. I've also seen Glock LEO trades that looked like they had fired 100,000 rounds.

I agree that alot depends on the agency as to how much a trade in pistol has been shot. Personally, I'll still take a 3rd generation LEO trade in that has had thousands of rounds through it over anything new leaving the gates at S&W today. Regards 18DAI.

I have a couple of LE trades; 1st is a S&W 5903 TSW and 2nd is a Sig P6. Both are great shooting guns and I shoot tighter groups with the P6 than any other pistol I have. Oh yeah I forgot my P229 CPO it is most assuredly a trade in from some LE agency.

I recently bought a Remington 870 Police shotgun, traded in by the TABC (Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission) and it is in really great condition. It has wood stock & forearm, IC rifle sights, 18" barrel. I called Remington and they dated the gun to 1993, which surprised me because it looked so good. I also have a couple of ex Michigan 870 police shotguns I bought off gunbroker and they are also nice condition guns. Used guns, police or civilian, should be looked at and checked very carefully. The old saying when buying a house is: location, location, location. A good gun saying is: condition, condition, condition. Good hunting!

I've purchased several LE trade-ins and from my inspection the frames have seen holster wear, scratches and I'm sure some rain and snow. The barrels looked fine. Mine functioned each time the trigger was pulled. Except a Sig that appeared to have magazine issues. I sent it back to Sig for new springs, new mags and a gut cleaning. She's a shooter now. Those with night sights were usually burnt out. With some rubbing, cleaning and polishing they all looked very well. Granted, some I've seen have been knocked around for some years without any TLC, but I don't select those for purchase. The round count can always be debated. My duty sidearm only saw the range when I was required to qualify. So, the private citizen who purchased it afterwards got a very good deal. It was always cleaned, shined with maybe 2500 rounds + down the barrel. My M10 revolver I'm sure had less. Maybe officers are shooting more on their free time today. In my day, we shot for qualification only. I don't recall any gun nuts.

Carried a lot and shot very little may sound like the pre-owned car dealer who is trying to sell off the 20 year old car that he SAYS was only driven by the blue haired old lady who drove the car two days a week, to the grocery store and to get her hair done on Saturday and then to church on Sunday.

As an LEO I know countless Officers in my dept. that only practice with their service pistols the required minimum of four sessions a year. Daytime Practice and daytime Qualification and then Nighttime Practice and Nighttime Qualification. Of course if an Officer wants to practice he or she is encouraged to do so. Our range staff has a Service Pistol Practice session a day a month and you can come out and shoot the State mandated course of fire. I have done that a bunch and the ammo is provided free of charge. Relays are rarely full so out of 1,700 sworn we have anywhere from 5-15 per month taking advantage of that.

Some people, myself included, also practice on their own and their ammo is at their own expense and a tax write-off. Again, this is rare. So in my personal experience over the last 17 years, most Officers in my agency (can't speak about other agencies) shoot the required four sessions a year at a round count of a whopping 200 rounds per year. Our qualification course is only 50 rounds. Add that up and over a 5 year period you're looking at 1,000 rounds.

Our 4046's were in service from about 1991 until about 2005. Many had a rather high round count, like mine, but were still in great shape. Others, only shot minimally, still look like new. We were given the option to purchase as many as we wanted for $250. The dept. then transitioned to the SW-99 and that was short lived as confidence was low due to a sear block housing recall and some Officers had a hard time going from a DAO pistol to a traditional double action with the funky controls, decock button on the top of the slide and ambi magazine release levers on the sides of the trigger guard. If you had long thumbs you were probably OK to drop the magazine with your strong side thumb, if not you had to drop it with your trigger finger!

Our dept. also issued Glock 27's to Vice and Narcotics Detectives for about 10 years and plain clothes Detectives were issued Glock 23's. Our SWAT team carried Glock 22's and within the last two years transitioned to the Glock 21SF.

Over that time period some of the SW-99's (and showing up on Gunbroker.com and Gunsamerica.com) look like junk while others look like they are brand new. Strangely enough ALL of the Glocks were purchased by Officers and the remaining 4046's and SW-99's that were not purchased were sent back to Smith in trade for the M&P40's.

Staff not assigned to SWAT now carry the M&P40 in either full size or compact depending on your rank and assignment. Detectives and command staff are allowed the choice of full size or compact and all others are issued the full size M&P40.

I say all this to let you know that some agencies run through service pistols in long or short service life’s (or would that be lives?). Judging by a 10 year service life, that carried a lot, shot very little pistol, can now have a round count of about 2,000 rounds. In contrast, if an Officer works 40 hours a week which is probably on the very low side considering off duty jobs and carrying the pistol off duty or on trips and 50 weeks a year that pistol has now been carried for 20,000 hours in that same 10 year period.

Several of the firearms in my collection are prior LE guns. Some carried by me and others by strangers. Before purchasing any used gun I'll want to field strip it and check for wear. If it looks excessive I'll pass. If there is little or mild wear I will consider the purchase if the price is right. I have been extremely happy with all of my LE trade in guns but they were all hand selected and I was thorough in my inspection before deciding to purchase. Anyone else considering a LE trade in purchase would be wise to do the same.

Just a few things to think about.

Trooper224 said:

IMHO that's a sales technique used by resellers and a rather inane comment used by buyers to make themselves feel better about their purchase.

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Yes I agree with it being a sales technique, but I don't tell myself these things to make me feel better about a purchase.

Trooper224 said:

(just like the absurd "it shoots better than I do") Most range commandos naturally assume cop guns aren't shot that much.

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I assume nothing about any gun, much less trying to ascertain a round count on a particular firearm.

Trooper224 said:

Unless documentation can be provided by the department as to how many rounds have been fired there's simply no way to tell. Some may show obvious signs of wear, while others to a much lesser degree, but "carried a lot and shot a little" is an erronious assumption.

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I agree on documentation to prove a certain claim. Again, when I sell a gun, I look at the outside appearance and rate it accordingly. If it is a known LEO gun and it has minimal wear, I will say that it looks like it wasn't carried much. Perhaps the correct description should be it wasn't unholstered much, as that would put the wear on the outside surface. I use the same criteria when I break down the weapon and look at the internals. There are certain areas prone to wear and when I do not see the apparent wear pattern, I will confidently say it hasn't been shot much. I ALWAYS include the disclaimer, "round count UNKNOWN".

NYPD model 10's, the guys would try to get their cylinders so rusty they would'nt open and therefore could'nt perform patrol until the range replaced the cylinder or a loaner was given. Other guys upon notification of having to go to Rodman's Neck thought they should check out their revolver before they got there. Some ( most ) had'nt been unholstered for a year. You would not believe the tools used in the locker room to try and free up the cylinder. Slappers, billy's, nightsticks, cuffs, radiators all on those poor model 10's. As far as the RMP's when they needed oil and only when, and thats even if the oil light came on, we had 55 gallon oil drums in the garage. Cops would pick up anything out of the garbage, floor, to scoop oil out of drum and into car. I remember one female picking up a full Mcdonalds cup of soda topping it off with oil and pouring it into vehicle block. I would never buy a used Police vehicle, or gun. Here in S.Florida it's better but still these RMP's are beat to crap and even though the mileage may be low, they are standing idling in the heat with full A/C for entire 12 hour back to back shifts. There is no reason to care for them, alot of cops are'nt happy at work for one thing and maintaining a city vehicle has no rewards. Just my opinion, take it for what it cost.

I've seen almost pristine 1911's that were rarely shot,just cleaned twice a year.I bought two HK USP's that never left the arms room,were never issued.A state police issued Model 28 that didnt have so much as smudge on the finish.On the other hand i have a 870 that looks like they didn't know what an oiled rag was for,the finish can be described as (Brown).A lot of cops have no interest in shooting,it's just something they are forced to do each year.I know a department that bought 9mm Beretta's and ten months later switched to .40 Glocks ,once again their trade ins looked brand new.

Ditto to what the other members say. It mostly depends on the department, firearms policy and funding. Some departments shoot very little. The bare minimum to squeak by thier state qualification standards.
Some departments hand out ammo like its candy, so officers shoot the hell out of thier sidearms.

As both a Fleo and LE firearms instructor, I can tell you this:
No matter what the department, there are officers who don't like to shoot anymore than they have to. For example all they do is shoot the qualification course and thats it.

It's like buying a pig in a poke...LOL Only pure luck or handpicking by yourself will ensure a low round count minty trade is found.

32sgteot said:

NYPD model 10's, the guys would try to get their cylinders so rusty they would'nt open and therefore could'nt perform patrol until the range replaced the cylinder or a loaner was given. Other guys upon notification of having to go to Rodman's Neck thought they should check out their revolver before they got there. Some ( most ) had'nt been unholstered for a year. You would not believe the tools used in the locker room to try and free up the cylinder. Slappers, billy's, nightsticks, cuffs, radiators all on those poor model 10's. As far as the RMP's when they needed oil and only when, and thats even if the oil light came on, we had 55 gallon oil drums in the garage. Cops would pick up anything out of the garbage, floor, to scoop oil out of drum and into car. I remember one female picking up a full Mcdonalds cup of soda topping it off with oil and pouring it into vehicle block. I would never buy a used Police vehicle, or gun. Here in S.Florida it's better but still these RMP's are beat to crap and even though the mileage may be low, they are standing idling in the heat with full A/C for entire 12 hour back to back shifts. There is no reason to care for them, alot of cops are'nt happy at work for one thing and maintaining a city vehicle has no rewards. Just my opinion, take it for what it cost.

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Sgt, I'm retired NYPD as well. while I would never buy a ex police vehicle, you and I both know that the average NYPD cop shoots only when he goes to qualify (and I'm sure that goes for most PD's). So 2 times a year at Rodman's Neck, at 200 rounds a session means that you are firing 400 rounds a year. That's 8000 rounds in a 20 year career. Now, cops weren't great with maintaining their weapons (although I was. Some of my guns are 30 years old and look brand new), a thourough cleaning will remedy that (maybe change some springs). I've seen cops unholster their guns and french fries fall out of the holster. Would i buy a cop gun dedicated to recruit training? Hell no. But a 20 year model 10 still has TONS of life left.

KBM, Nothing but respect to you. Remember the dogs at the range? The prisoners? The meatball sandwiches? Anyway, did my whole 20 in the 32, 34, and 26pct's. So did Wifey.
Somehow, were still doing it here in S. Florida. Never thought I'd miss being on the job, even though they consider this being on the job. Kinda miss my swivel holster and cap. Oh well
Good luck to you