44 russian ammo

I found this nice metal box of 44 russian ammo,unusual to find a new box of this ammo in Europe,no production name on the box ,written in french reading ,0,90 grams of black powder and lead bullit of 14,25 grams , is there one of the European members here on the forum that knows the bullits origine?

Very cool find! I hope someone can identify it and I would be curious as to the age of this ammo. Kyle

Hi Kyle ,I think it's made for modern cowboy action shooting
the ammo and the box looks new, and since there is only French and English text on the box I pressume it's origine is french ,it's my intention to shoot the nickel target no3 with this ammo and to reload when fired,I received some good info from another member on the 32s&w ammo, which dies do I need to reload the 44 russian ammo ?

If I remember right, R.C.B.S. offered dies specific to the 44 Russian round. Are you able to locate their web site and order from them? You always seem to find some cool stuff over there and I enjoy your photos of your finds. Kyle

You can size and expand with 44 spcl/mag dies but crimping may require a specific seat/crimp die. The 44 russian is the father of the 44 spcl and grandfather of the 44 mag.

if dies are offered by R.C.B.S than I must find them here,
thank you both for the info

Howdy

As was already stated, you can load 44 Russian with a standard 44 Magnum/44 Special die set, but most seating/crimp dies cannot be adjusted far enough down to crimp the 44 Russian case. I reload 44 Russian with a standard RCBS carbide 44 Magnum/44 Special die set, but I had to grind down the bottom of the seating/crimp die a great deal in order to get it to screw into the press far enough to crimp the shorter 44 Russian cases. Without grinding, when the ram was in the upper position the shell holder would not allow the die to be screwed in enough to crimp the shell. I had to grind about 1/4" off the bottom of the die to make it work. I also had to grind the expander plug back a bit as it was going too deep into the shell.

RCBS does sell a die set in their Cowboy Dies line that is specifically for 44 Special and 44 Russian. Since they are not advertising it for 44 Mag, I assume they have altered the interior geometry enough that you can crimp 44 Russian without any problems.

Lee Precision sells a carbide die set that is specifically for loading 44 Russian.

Driftwood Johnson said:

Howdy

As was already stated, you can load 44 Russian with a standard 44 Magnum/44 Special die set, but most seating/crimp dies cannot be adjusted far enough down to crimp the 44 Russian case. I reload 44 Russian with a standard RCBS carbide 44 Magnum/44 Special die set, but I had to grind down the bottom of the seating/crimp die a great deal in order to get it to screw into the press far enough to crimp the shorter 44 Russian cases. Without grinding, when the ram was in the upper position the shell holder would not allow the die to be screwed in enough to crimp the shell. I had to grind about 1/4" off the bottom of the die to make it work. I also had to grind the expander plug back a bit as it was going too deep into the shell.

RCBS does sell a die set in their Cowboy Dies line that is specifically for 44 Special and 44 Russian. Since they are not advertising it for 44 Mag, I assume they have altered the interior geometry enough that you can crimp 44 Russian without any problems.

Lee Precision sells a carbide die set that is specifically for loading 44 Russian.

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thanks Driftwood ,it all depends on the price's asked for the dies ,it won't be a problem to grind the 44 mag die ,anybody has an idea on the price of a 44 russian reload set?

Howdy

$39.99 for the Lee set.

Lee Precision, Inc. Reloading Tools and Equipment: Pistol Dies

$68.95 for the RCBS Cowboy dies for 44 Russian/44 Special

https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/Ma...yDisplay&categoryId=C09J050N143&route=C09J050

Driftwood Johnson said:

Howdy

$39.99 for the Lee set.

Lee Precision, Inc. Reloading Tools and Equipment: Pistol Dies

$68.95 for the RCBS Cowboy dies for 44 Russian/44 Special

https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/Ma...yDisplay&categoryId=C09J050N143&route=C09J050

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Mr johnson,thank's very much ,I found a local dealer on the list
69 $ is not that much and I will go for the 44 russians,
great info ,

For what it's worth that looks like Starline brass.

reinhard,
Have you shot black powder in your guns before? Are you familiar with cleaning after black powder use? Both the gun and the empty brass will need special attention.

Ward

Howdy Again

I did a little bit of math regarding those Black Powder rounds.

14.25 grams converts to a tad over 219 grains for the bullets, and .9 grams converts to about 13.88 grains of Black Powder. The original loading of the cartridge was with a 246 grain bullet and about 23 grains of Black Powder. So if I did my math right, those loads are quite light compared to the originals. I use a 200 grain bullet and about 19.5 grains of Schuetzen FFg powder in my loads.

I cannot say for sure if those are Starline cases, but I have attached a couple of photos. One is of some Black Hills Cowboy 44 Russian cartridges. These are loaded with Starline brass. I included a couple of virgin Starline brass and hopefully you can make out the headstamp. It is a bit different than the headstamp on your ammo. I load a lot of Starline brass, and it all has the two stars and the curved line at the top. At least all the stuff that I have reloaded. You will notice that this ammo has Round Nosed Flat Point bullets, so it can be loaded safely in the tubular magazine of a rifle. Sorry, I don't have any of my own reloads on hand right now for a photo. Gotta catch up on my reloading.

Regarding cleaning up after shooting Black Powder, yes, it is different than cleaning up after shooting Smokeless, but it is nowhere near as difficult as some folks believe. All you need is a good water based Black Powder solvent and a little bit of elbow grease. It is crucial that your bullets should have a soft, gooey Black Powder compatible bullet lube on them. Regular hard lube for Smokeless bullets will cause problems both shooting and cleaning up after Black Powder.

The other thing to bear in mind is that a lot of the revolvers chambered for 44 Russian tended to shoot high at standard pistol distances. My own ammo shoots about 6 inches high at about 10 yards. I will probably try either a little bit less powder, a lighter bullet, or both.

Shoot me a question if you need any advice on cleaning up after shooting BP.

OFT II said:

For what it's worth that looks like Starline brass.

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I don't know if it's Starline brass,here is a clear picture of the headstamp

WHO CARES said:

reinhard,
Have you shot black powder in your guns before? Are you familiar with cleaning after black powder use? Both the gun and the empty brass will need special attention.

Ward

Click to expand...

Hi Ward ,yes I shoot black powder for more than twenty years now ,and I use Bl.Pwdr in my Uberti cattleman, for cleaning I use the Birchwood Bl.Pwdr cleaning solvent .

Driftwood Johnson said:

Howdy Again

I did a little bit of math regarding those Black Powder rounds.

14.25 grams converts to a tad over 219 grains for the bullets, and .9 grams converts to about 13.88 grains of Black Powder. The original loading of the cartridge was with a 246 grain bullet and about 23 grains of Black Powder. So if I did my math right, those loads are quite light compared to the originals. I use a 200 grain bullet and about 19.5 grains of Schuetzen FFg powder in my loads.

I cannot say for sure if those are Starline cases, but I have attached a couple of photos. One is of some Black Hills Cowboy 44 Russian cartridges. These are loaded with Starline brass. I included a couple of virgin Starline brass and hopefully you can make out the headstamp. It is a bit different than the headstamp on your ammo. I load a lot of Starline brass, and it all has the two stars and the curved line at the top. At least all the stuff that I have reloaded. You will notice that this ammo has Round Nosed Flat Point bullets, so it can be loaded safely in the tubular magazine of a rifle. Sorry, I don't have any of my own reloads on hand right now for a photo. Gotta catch up on my reloading.

Regarding cleaning up after shooting Black Powder, yes, it is different than cleaning up after shooting Smokeless, but it is nowhere near as difficult as some folks believe. All you need is a good water based Black Powder solvent and a little bit of elbow grease. It is crucial that your bullets should have a soft, gooey Black Powder compatible bullet lube on them. Regular hard lube for Smokeless bullets will cause problems both shooting and cleaning up after Black Powder.

The other thing to bear in mind is that a lot of the revolvers chambered for 44 Russian tended to shoot high at standard pistol distances. My own ammo shoots about 6 inches high at about 10 yards. I will probably try either a little bit less powder, a lighter bullet, or both.

Shoot me a question if you need any advice on cleaning up after shooting BP.

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Thanks , that's a very mild load,I didn't convert it to grains yet
but I already saw that 0,90 grams is very low ,I think there are more wad's in the casing than powder, I will try 25 grains of FF, what is the max.load for a 44 Russian ?

Howdy again

I do not think that is Starline brass. It does not look like any of the Starline brass I have loaded. I have attached a photo of various calibers of Starline brass. Notice that except for the 45 Schofield, it all has the two stars separated by a curved line at the top. Also, notice that the head stamp is stamped very deep into Starline brass. The head stamp appears to have been lightly engraved on your brass.

Regarding max Smokeless loads, there is no official SAAMI max pressure for the 44 Russian cartridge. There are many obsolete cartridges that SAAMI does not have standards for. All of the data I have seen for Smokeless 44 Russian loads is limited to light cowboy loads. Were it not for Cowboy shooting, no brass would be available for 44 Russian at all today. 44 Russian was revived when Cowboy shooters realized that they could load very light Smokeless loads in the small case and not suffer inconsistent powder burns as can happen with the larger cases of 44 Magnum or 44 Special and light Smokeless loads. There are no rifles currently chambered for the round, but some 44 Mag/Special rifles can be modified to feed 44 Russian.

With Black Powder, my standard advice is to always put in the amount of powder that will be compressed between 1/16" -1/8" when the bullet is seated. The actual amount will vary according to how deep the bullet sits in the case when it is crimped, and the specific brand and granulation of powder you are using. If I am loading just a couple of boxes of ammo I will use Lee dippers and hand dip my powder. With my 200 grain bullet a Lee 1.3CC dipper scraped level measured out about 19.5 grains of Schuetzen FFg which provided the correct amount of compression. As I said, this load is shooting high from my New Model Number 3, about 3 inches at 30 feet. My next batch I will probably throttle back to the next increment in my Lee dippers, 1.0CC which will probably still give me a minimum of compression. Remember, leave no air space in a Black Powder load! You also don't want to add so much powder that you are compressing the dickens out of it. You may raise pressure to an unacceptable level. Modern solid head cases will not hold as much powder as the old balloon head cases would, so you will probably be hard pressed to cram 25 grains in no matter what bullet you are using. The original load was only 23 grains in balloon head cases.

When you determine the correct load for your bullets, bear in mind that all brands of Black Powder weigh slightly different amounts. For that reason, stating exactly how many grains of BP per load is meaningless. Better that you first determine what amount gives you the correct amount of compression for the specific brand and granulation you are using with the bullet you are using. Then weigh that amount.

As an aside, Mike Venturino states in his book Shooting Sixguns of the Old West, that almost all revolvers chambered for 44 Russian cartridge will shoot high.

reinhard said:

I don't know if it's Starline brass,here is a clear picture of the headstamp

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You're right. I don't think that it's Starline. I just saw the two stars and made a SWAG.

I didn't know I had some Starline ammo myself ,I found this 41 colt ammo in an old box and it sure looks like Starline brass,it still remains a mystery to the origin of the 44 russians though
the headstamp on the 41 colt is much fatter than the 44's but like OFTII said the stars are a bit confusing
D.Johnson your knowledge on the 44R is very much appreciated

I don't have any Starline 41 Colt brass, but that sure looks like the Starline headstamp, and Starline does include 41 Colt in their brass lineup.