Model 12 Winchester bolt

rchall · Aug 15, 2011

In talking to another Model 12 collector he mentioned something about the amount of play in the bolt of a Model 12. He showed me how to check the play in the bolt when it is closed and locked by pushing the carrier up from underneath. If the bolt moves too much then it may be unsafe to fire. How much movement is acceptable and what needs to be done to eliminate this play??

bigolddave · Aug 16, 2011

I don't know how much play is acceptable (probably very little) but I know that if repair is necessary it is not cheap. I had a M12 Trap that I sent to Stu Wright, in Pinckneyville, IL to have repaired, and it required welding and machining of the recess in the receiver where the bolt locks. The gun had had quite a bit of use before I bought it, it had been built in 1941. I paid $375 for it, and two repair bills came to well over the price of the gun, and that was years ago.

By the way, Wright does excellent work, and his turn around time is very good. The other principal smith for M12's, in MO, does good work, but it may take several months to get your gun back.

rchall · Aug 16, 2011

Thanks! My 12 was made in 1923. There is some play in it, but I have shot it and it shoots, feeds, and ejects without a hitch. So, just wondering if it would pay me to have it checked by my gunsmith?

bigolddave · Aug 17, 2011

How much do you intend to shoot it? If you are going to put more than a box or two a year through it, once the play begins, it will rapidly worsen. Like all mechanical things that are supposed to fit snugly, any running start will cause wear or battering. I would either get it fixed or put it away.

A model 12 of that vintage is apt to have short chambers, especially a 16 or 20 gauge. Some were opened up, with no ill effects, but because of the age probably heavy loads are not a good idea. Any parts that are not common to the 12, 16, and 20 gauge are substantially mor expensive in the smaller gauges, if you can find them at all.

2152hq · Aug 17, 2011

Both the action slide (pump slide arm) and the slide lock can and do wear allowing the bolt to fall slightly from the full lock position.
These pumps aren't exactly youngsters anymore and even field guns have seen alot of rounds.

The action slide wears at the back end where it engages the bolt and lifts it into battery. The slide lock wears at the point where it locks and holds the slide & bolt in the locked position when the hammer is cocked.
The slide lock is what you by-pass by pushing the slide release on the outside of the trigger guard to open the action.

The bolt should fit tightly in the locked position as pointed out already. Any loosness will allow battering of the receiver locking surface to begin .
Check the receiver area in the top/roof locking cut for peened or burred metal.

Replacing/rebuilding the parts mentioned can tighten the action back up usually.
But if the locking surfaces are damaged, then the already mentioned welding and refitting of those areas is also needed as well.
It can all get rather pricey.

Simmons Gun Specialtys still does M12's IIRC but I don't think they will do the welding/refitting anymore due to liability reasons.

It wasn't uncommon to rebuild m12's for alot of the better gunshops when they were frequently used in trap and skeet..

bushmaster1313 · Aug 17, 2011

Stu Wright cleaned my 1957 Model 12, replaced the springs and checked the timing for a very reasonable price.

rchall · Aug 19, 2011

Thanks everyone! I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet. I don't shoot the gun alot anyway. I'll probably let my gunsmith look at it and let him decide what should be done. If it's too pricey then I'll just leave it alone. If it's not too major then I'll have him work on it.

msinc · Aug 20, 2011

Where were you knowledgable fellas during the last post about Model 12's blowing themselves open and half this forum called me a liar??? The above info is correct...it wont be cheap to fix, if it moves much more than about an 1/8th of an inch it wont be safe to shoot and just as above these old battle axes ain't exactly spring chickens these days. They are getting rather valuble though and if the price is right and the rest of the gun aint too bad I would still buy it. Newline Guns {google it} still has/had new action bars {the part that wears} for around $100.00 last I bought one. Interesting read...search the Lounge for Model 12 and check out the last string regarding this issue...they jumped on me with both feet for the mere suggestion that a Model 12 will wear out!!! I have probably welded up about ten of the action bars over the years, once I knew exactly what the end is supposed to look like and measure. To all those guys that are experts on the Model 12 and believe it cant blow itself open...stay stupid.

rchall · Sep 3, 2011

Well, I let my gunsmith look at my Model 12 and he said that if it was his he wouldn't mess with it. He told me he could do a little welding and fitting on the lockup notch in the top of the receiver for about $50 and that it would tighten it up some. However, he said it was not that necessary right now as the gun looked like it was in good shape. He said he would take my money later if I decided I wanted it done. He is is as honest as the day is long I think and does not do work just to get money out of it. If it's not necessary he will tell you and that's why I have taken stuff to him for years.

msinc · Sep 3, 2011

As long as the gun is not blowing itself open when fired I guess you will not really be unsafe. I have fired/repaired several that were worn to the point they did this and although it is no fun and generally not regarded as safe to shoot I didn't really feel like it was necessarily dangerous, I just wouldn't make a habit of it. I understand you like this guy and believe in him but if he told you he could "weld the notch in the top of the receiver" it is seriously time to find a real gunsmith...definately not the way to repair the Model 12. The bolt locking notch or cutout in the receiver or the "horn" on the top of the actual bolt itself is not what wears. Sounds like the guy is guessing or you missunderstood what he was saying. Good luck...if he for real intends to weld up the bolt notch in your receiver both of you are going to need it.

rchall · Sep 4, 2011

No, the gun is not blowing itself open or anything like that. He said he would take it apart and check everything out to make sure of what exactly needed to be done to tighten it up. He really is a top-notch smith, been in business over 40 years. When he does work it will be done right.

2152hq · Sep 4, 2011

Building up with weld and refacing the receiver locking surface was a very common operation done to M12's that had been battered, peened and distorted as a result of worn slide action arm and/or bolt lock.

The bolt rarely wears as it is harder than the receiver surface but they too occasionally are worn to the point of replacement or rebuild.

M42's never had as much the same problem as their receiver is harder than the M12 and the action bar slide is a slightly different design where it lifts the bolt into the locked position. But they too can get loose.

Pachmeyer, G&H, Simmons, Jeagers, ect. all used to offer the service if needed in an M12 overhaul. Many smaller operations did also.

The alternative was an expensive trip to the factory repair for a new receiver as that part was not sold outside the factory.
Slide action bars are hard to find in good condition as are most M12 parts. Most are worn and the only way to repair it is to weld and refit.

Now with labor costs the way they are, the cost of such repairs gets prohibitive on most M12's. Many shops discontinued the repair service.

rchall · Sep 4, 2011

Thanks for all the info. on the Model 12. I'm not going to mess with it right now as money is a little tight. Maybe in the winter months when he is not so busy. Right now is his busiest time of year as hunting season is nearing. Good to know all the stuff that needs to be checked out when the time comes.

Model 12 Winchester bolt

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