silentflyer
Member
With the right hand cannon, no second shot needed...
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Basic Ammo Question: The higher the grains, the more powerful the round?
- Thread starter Chris L.
- Start date
if you go to the midway site they list the foot pounds of energy for the particular rounds that they sell.
if you go to the georgia arms site they have a calculator that you can use to determine the foot pounds of energy using the bullet weight and velocity.
if you go to the georgia arms site they have a calculator that you can use to determine the foot pounds of energy using the bullet weight and velocity.
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No, Ed is just relating his personal experience with "heavier" .38 Special loads.
+ P loads will deliver more energy (and have a greater effect on target) than a standard pressure one. You just have to be able to deliver it accurately, and with greater recoil and muzzle blast (especially for follow-up shots) it is more challenging.
38 +P ammo is the cats meyow in a 38 revolver if it was made to handle this higher pressure ammo.........
A 148wc target load has 1.16 ft/lbs of recoil and the Rem FBI 158Lhp load has 5.86 ft/lbs of recoil but is a proven bullet in SD,over the years.
However a +P in a revolver made for 38 special "Non +P" loads can cause damage to the weapons action and working parts and spring the frame, making the gun usless.
Why would anyone want to kill a "work of art" just for a few more ft/lbs of energy shooting lots of +P til it dies.
A 148wc target load has 1.16 ft/lbs of recoil and the Rem FBI 158Lhp load has 5.86 ft/lbs of recoil but is a proven bullet in SD,over the years.
However a +P in a revolver made for 38 special "Non +P" loads can cause damage to the weapons action and working parts and spring the frame, making the gun usless.
Why would anyone want to kill a "work of art" just for a few more ft/lbs of energy shooting lots of +P til it dies.
mkk41
US Veteran
Where in the world are you getting these figures from?
The best (max) .38 Special 125gr JHP+P load listed in Speer data (6grs Unique) only hits 1082fps out of a 6in barrel.
durco
Member
Uh-huh; just one shot - as long as the right Knucklehead is aiming it and correctly squeezing the trigger on the first shot, in the right light conditions where a quick and decent sight picture is possible......
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And that magic hand cannon comes from which genie in which bottle?
First, I appreciate your wanting to learn some facts about different cartridge loads, and it can be confusing to have a lot of numbers/stats/charts thrown at you. For a self defense load in a snubbie, you want the bullet to expand as much as it can, and expend as much energy as it can in it's intended target (bad guy).
As several previous posts indicate, there is no one best load...you have a choice of bullet weight, bullet design, bullet material and then factory powder loading. IN NO CIRCUMSTANCE SHOULD YOU USE A HANDLOAD FOR SELF DEFENSE...simple legal truth here, dont take my word for it, but do some reading on this.
Now, in a snubbie you will probably feel the recoil more intensely than in a heavier gun especially with a .357 or .38+P load. Simple physics here and much has been written on this topic by scribes smarter than I. Heavier bullet out one end=more recoil on the other end. Shorter barrel = more muzzle flip and flash.
Choose a bullet design which best serves YOUR needs. For example, if you are in a cold area and a potential social encounter would include heavy winter coats and multiple layers of clothing, perhaps something like a CorBon Powrball round with a hollow point containing a polymer ball to prevent becoming clogged with leather/denim/whatever and possibly not expanding.
The good news in all of this rambling is that there are many choices for defensive ammo available now, and I hope that this is helpful to you.
You must have the new "Lawyer" aproved Speer volume........
My Speer shows the maximum for a 125GR. Speer soft point at 1207 fps with Unique and 1308 fps with 2400 powder.
Hogdon #23 has the 125jhp listed at 1181 and 1206 fps.
Even the new "Improved" Alliant data show the 125 +P getting to 1165 fps, which we all know has been watered down............which matches Federals 124gr at 1180fps.
My Speer shows the maximum for a 125GR. Speer soft point at 1207 fps with Unique and 1308 fps with 2400 powder.
Hogdon #23 has the 125jhp listed at 1181 and 1206 fps.
Even the new "Improved" Alliant data show the 125 +P getting to 1165 fps, which we all know has been watered down............which matches Federals 124gr at 1180fps.
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Simple and complicated.
A lighter bullet must be driven faster to give the same penetrating qualities of a heavier bullet.
All things being equal, with respect to caliber and velocity, a heavier bullet has a longer sectional density than a lighter one. The added weight and density help give it more punch.
I have found that with the proper load, a 38spl bullet has more thump than a 9mm bullet. It has more case capacity, and the ability to use bullets up to 200 weight.
As for small vs big, such as a 9mm vs 45 Acp, well, all they are doing is making a small bullet act like a big bullet by trying to get it to expand and drive up the velocities.
While small calibers are effective with the proper velocity and bullet construction, it is depending on variables such as speed and expansion to, well, act like a bigger caliber!
As for the use of reloads for SD; this has been going around for years. The assumption that reloads will get you into trouble legally was based on a specific set of incidents reported by Mas Ayoob years ago. Mas was not incorrect in what he said, but the application of the intent has been misunderstood by the masses.
In a SD situation, if the use of deadly force was justified, it makes little difference if you used a hammer, axe, Louiville Slugger or crow bar or knife to defend yourself. The same goes with handloaded ammo.
What sounds more ominous, a lswc bullet handload, or " Guard Dog, Zombie ammo, or Black Talon?
The problem cited in one incident Mas talked about was a suicide where the victim used light handloaded ammo made by her husband to allow her to shoot the gun for SD. Since the ammo didn't leave powder residue or burn make characteristic with crime lab testing, the distance of the gunshot became an issue.
Yes, anything can happen. But using handloads for SD is not in itself a determining factor in lawful use of deadly force.
A lighter bullet must be driven faster to give the same penetrating qualities of a heavier bullet.
All things being equal, with respect to caliber and velocity, a heavier bullet has a longer sectional density than a lighter one. The added weight and density help give it more punch.
I have found that with the proper load, a 38spl bullet has more thump than a 9mm bullet. It has more case capacity, and the ability to use bullets up to 200 weight.
As for small vs big, such as a 9mm vs 45 Acp, well, all they are doing is making a small bullet act like a big bullet by trying to get it to expand and drive up the velocities.
While small calibers are effective with the proper velocity and bullet construction, it is depending on variables such as speed and expansion to, well, act like a bigger caliber!
As for the use of reloads for SD; this has been going around for years. The assumption that reloads will get you into trouble legally was based on a specific set of incidents reported by Mas Ayoob years ago. Mas was not incorrect in what he said, but the application of the intent has been misunderstood by the masses.
In a SD situation, if the use of deadly force was justified, it makes little difference if you used a hammer, axe, Louiville Slugger or crow bar or knife to defend yourself. The same goes with handloaded ammo.
What sounds more ominous, a lswc bullet handload, or " Guard Dog, Zombie ammo, or Black Talon?
The problem cited in one incident Mas talked about was a suicide where the victim used light handloaded ammo made by her husband to allow her to shoot the gun for SD. Since the ammo didn't leave powder residue or burn make characteristic with crime lab testing, the distance of the gunshot became an issue.
Yes, anything can happen. But using handloads for SD is not in itself a determining factor in lawful use of deadly force.
Number1gun
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People. Energy is energy. Period. You know that E=MCsquared thing. Many of you keep making unrealistic comparisons. IMO..for the purpose of a person to person defence load...Throw caliber out the window, except to say start at .380 and go up from there. Only minor exceptions would be .22 mag or 327mag. But in general..Now think of it like this: any load that generates between 300 f/lbs and 600 f/lbs is where you need to be. Once you get up around 600 f/lbs. and above things start to change, having nothing to do with caliber. It is energy delivered to target. An Apple to Apple comparison would be .380, 95gr at 1000ft/sec vs .243, 95gr at 2960ft/sec. Tremendous difference in energy. Exact same mass at 3 times the speed. In the 300-600 ft/lb range there are no Magic One Stop Bullets.
Pick what you are comfortable shooting and run with it. .45 is way overrated and outdated. And....proven many times...faster bullets expand better, transferring that energy to target. Oldest, hottest topic on any forum. Best wishes
Pick what you are comfortable shooting and run with it. .45 is way overrated and outdated. And....proven many times...faster bullets expand better, transferring that energy to target. Oldest, hottest topic on any forum. Best wishes
mkk41
US Veteran
Naw , not quite. This is from the Speer pages of a .38 Special LoadbooksUSA 2000 edition. And the data was probably a few years old then.
They copy the Speer/Sierra/Hornady/Nosler pages directly from the manual.
Where do you factor sectional density into the "energy is energy" equation? Or the effect of different loads in different guns within the same caliber? Or the effect of identical loads in different guns within the same caliber? How is more velocity automatically and always better if, dependent on the particular application, it results in early expansion and under-penetration?
I agree that the topic can and often is debated to death, and in general picking a comfortable caliber and getting good with it is advised, but there's a little more to selecting the best round for the specific gun and job than that.
Also, .45ACP rocks.
Number1gun
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Only looking at raw energy available. Yes there are issues with terminal ballistics and it is as hotly debated as the caliber issue.
To me the correlation is clear regardless of bullet type. As the energy goes up so does the damage. Having a bullet open up just right is a bonus. A .50BMG producing about 10,000ft/lbs is so massive not too many people survive. The hole is only 5/1000ths of an inch larger than .45. The bottom line is that there is a huge disparity between energy but not the size of the hole. If you can transfer enough energy then you could have an absolute 1 shot stop. You can not get there in a hand gun. Well you could it is not practical though. More over most people start to have issues with recoil in the heavy .40 S&W range. Never mind 10mm and up. Just saying as a practical matter that there is no real difference in caliber as it relates to self Defence if the energy produced is the same or pretty close. A great read...? Can't find it. May be on Glock Talk. Study on actual shootings. Bottom line was that 70% of the time the attackers stopped doing whatever it was that needed stopping with one shot reguard less of caliber between .22 and .44mag. None of those were fatal. They stopped because they did not want to get shot again. The study broke it down to a point where number of rounds to complete incapacity was averaged out. No caliber averaged as 1.0 if I remember correctly .44mag was 1.3 and .22 was 1.8 or 1.9 everything else fell in between. If you find it read it and think about it. To me it sounds perfectly logical.
To me the correlation is clear regardless of bullet type. As the energy goes up so does the damage. Having a bullet open up just right is a bonus. A .50BMG producing about 10,000ft/lbs is so massive not too many people survive. The hole is only 5/1000ths of an inch larger than .45. The bottom line is that there is a huge disparity between energy but not the size of the hole. If you can transfer enough energy then you could have an absolute 1 shot stop. You can not get there in a hand gun. Well you could it is not practical though. More over most people start to have issues with recoil in the heavy .40 S&W range. Never mind 10mm and up. Just saying as a practical matter that there is no real difference in caliber as it relates to self Defence if the energy produced is the same or pretty close. A great read...? Can't find it. May be on Glock Talk. Study on actual shootings. Bottom line was that 70% of the time the attackers stopped doing whatever it was that needed stopping with one shot reguard less of caliber between .22 and .44mag. None of those were fatal. They stopped because they did not want to get shot again. The study broke it down to a point where number of rounds to complete incapacity was averaged out. No caliber averaged as 1.0 if I remember correctly .44mag was 1.3 and .22 was 1.8 or 1.9 everything else fell in between. If you find it read it and think about it. To me it sounds perfectly logical.
It really does not matter what you shoot..................
as long as you can get two placed center of mass in under one second, if possible................under all conditions.
as long as you can get two placed center of mass in under one second, if possible................under all conditions.
safearm
US Veteran
To not add to all of the rhetoric about light and fast vs. slow and heavy, but to answer your last question, these are the 2 .38 Special +P loads I carry in my 340 (which can chamber .357 magnum, but I find too punishing):
Speer 135 grain GDHP+P (modern design with a great track record)
158 grain LSWCHP+P (Chicago, St Louis, FBI load-great old design, great record; I carried this as a duty/off duty load while working as a police officer in northern Chicago suburbs 30 years ago, very similar to your weather in Wisconsin. Any manufacturer will work, I prefer Federal Nyclad if you can find them.)
TripPowers
Member
There are tons of info on ballistic gel performance & penetration . I read some very intresting articles discussing f.b.i. test & what they demand from a bullet . They usually want around 11 to 15 inches of penetration . I'm a fan of 165gr ( hard to find ) out of my model 66 no dash . I've had problems & read info on the 125gr can damage the forcing cone & in my own experice locked the revolver up tight. Having stated all this I must say over penetration is my biggest fear in a defensive situation . So in my 44mag (Ruger redhawk ) I shoot 44 specials.
