What makes Berdan rifle primers different?

David Sinko · Nov 22, 2013

I just ordered some of the Tula KV-24N Berdan primers what are "supposed to be used" to load 7.62x39. Why are they different from the KV-762N which is "supposed to be used" to load 7.62x51? Is the difference in the priming compound or cup size? If I want to reload 7.62x54R or any other similarly sized cartridge, which primer would I use? Would the world come to a screeching halt if I used the x39 primer in the x51 case? I plan to try my hand at loading Berdan primed 7.62x39 just to see how agonizing a process it really is, and then maybe branching out if I'm really bored or have way too much time on my hands.

Dave Sinko

Mcwsky09 · Nov 22, 2013

I am only personally familiar with the 7.62x54R but I have read a bunch of stuff online.

Are you taking about the difference in the flash hole(s) between Boxer and Berdan?
Or the difference in the Anvil between Boxer and Berdan?
Or the difference in the chemicals used?
Or the physical dimensions?

I have rounds with both corrosive and non-corrosive Berdan primers as well as 7.62x54R brass with Boxer Primers.

David Sinko · Nov 22, 2013

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. I know the difference between Berdan and Boxer. I want to know the difference between the various Berdan large rifle primers. I'm not sure why they need to be different, since I use the same Boxer primers when loading Boxer primed 7.62x39 and 7.62x51. Do the different Tula large rifle primers have different mixtures or dimensions?

Dave Sinko

tlay · Nov 22, 2013

You can use boxer primers for any 7.62x39 or any of the Russian rounds. Just make sure the brass is for the reloadable boxer primer. I have found some brass that is for berdan primers. The difference is that boxer has one larger hole in the center and berdan has 2 holes offset from the center. You cannot punch out the berdan primer with your deprimer. I have heard of ways to do it but they don't seem to be worth the trouble.
One of them was to fill the case with water then stick a very tight rod into the neck and hit it with a hammer. Prepare to get wet! It is supposed to drive the primer out with pressure. After it is out if you want you can drill a hole in the center for boxer primers.

BlueOvalBandit · Nov 22, 2013

I suspect when they indicate Milspec whether it be 7.62x39 or x51 NATO that the cups and/or the primer compound will be harder/less sensitive to prevent slam fires with free floating firing pins common in military firearms.

Kind of like CCI #34 & #41

scooter123 · Nov 22, 2013

There is a wider selection of diameters and heights in the Berdan system and it's likely that you are seeing 2 different primers. It's a guess but your AK ammo probably uses a 5.5mm diameter x 2.65 tall cup and the 308 uses the 5.5mm diameter x 2.80 tall cup. As for why the difference, the taller cup features thicker brass in the base that is probably more suitable in a machine gun.

David Sinko · Nov 23, 2013

OK, this is what I was looking for. For now I'm going to stick to 7.62x39. I don't think the others are worth the trouble just yet.

Dave Sinko

mark85304 · Nov 23, 2013

I can't find my references, but the Boxer primers are physically taller than the Berdan primers.

If you use a Boxer primer in a Berdan case, the primer will be higher that the case head and may cause either a slam fire or a failure to reach full battery. If you use a Berdan primer in a Boxer case, the primer will be seated too deep and may cause a misfire.

TSQUARED · Nov 23, 2013

David Sinko said:
I just ordered some of the Tula KV-24N Berdan primers what are "supposed to be used" to load 7.62x39. Why are they different from the KV-762N which is "supposed to be used" to load 7.62x51? Is the difference in the priming compound or cup size? If I want to reload 7.62x54R or any other similarly sized cartridge, which primer would I use? Would the world come to a screeching halt if I used the x39 primer in the x51 case? I plan to try my hand at loading Berdan primed 7.62x39 just to see how agonizing a process it really is, and then maybe branching out if I'm really bored or have way too much time on my hands.

Dave Sinko

Dave,
Berdan primers come in a variety of sizes. It has been several decades since I had to use Berdan primers to load the pre WWII RWS 8x68S cases. Once RWS started importing Boxer primed brass I discarded both the old cases and Berdan primers. They are a royal pain in the neck unless you have more time and patience than I ever did.

skrazo · Nov 23, 2013

Newbie Question

Not to hijack the thread, but, why do they make Berdan primers in the first place? Efficiency? Cost? Just curious.

gregintenn · Nov 23, 2013

skrazo said:
Not to hijack the thread, but, why do they make Berdan primers in the first place? Efficiency? Cost? Just curious.

I always thought it was just because they'd always done it that way. Kind of like the metric system and our units of measure.

I really have never heard for sure, however.

Jaymo · Nov 23, 2013

I read on a website that sells them that the Berdan primers for 7.62x54 are hotter than the ones for x39.

mark85304 · Nov 24, 2013

skrazo said:
Not to hijack the thread, but, why do they make Berdan primers in the first place? Efficiency? Cost? Just curious.

A lot of the foreign ammunition is Berdan primed. Boxer primed ammunition is mostly a North American standard. Actually, Berdan primers are easier to manufacture than Boxer primers.

Read the history on Berdan primers and Boxer primers.

Berdan primers are named after their American inventor, Hiram Berdan of New York who invented his first variation of the Berdan primer and patented it on March 20, 1866.

Boxer primers are named after Colonel Edward Mounier Boxer, of the Royal Arsenal, Woolwich, England was working on a primer cap design for cartridges, patenting it in England on October 13, 1866, and subsequently received a U.S. patent for his design on June 29, 1869.

So it looks like the Brits got the primer thing right.

Internally, the these primers function differently. That is the design is specific to the primer type and really does need to proper primer pocket to function properly. I know, I know, there are thousands of reloaders who use berdan primers in boxer pockets, and boxer primers in berdan pockets, but there are differences that can and do cause reliability issues, in some firearms, when mixed.

Because of the difficulty of de-capping Berdan primers, I don't reload any, only Boxer primed cartridges for me.

mkk41 · Nov 24, 2013

skrazo said:
Not to hijack the thread, but, why do they make Berdan primers in the first place? Efficiency? Cost? Just curious.

Don't think metallic cartridge reloading was ever as big across the ocean as it was here in the US. Normally , only the state or the very rich had cartridge firearms and could afford new ammo. Countries that did allow private firearms ownership post WWII seemed to tax ammo heavily or otherwise restrict availability and reloading grew with more and more European manufacturers offering Boxer componants.
Most European military ammo is still Berdan primed.

Is there a 'standard' Russian primer? I've bought several different makes of 7.62x54R ammo and some primers seemed to be 1/4" in dia!

Leonard · Nov 24, 2013

mark85304 said:
Internally, the these primers function differently. That is the design is specific to the primer type and really does need to proper primer pocket to function properly. I know, I know, there are thousands of reloaders who use berdan primers in boxer pockets, and boxer primers in berdan pockets, but there are differences that can and do cause reliability issues, in some firearms, when mixed.

Because of the difficulty of de-capping Berdan primers, I don't reload any, only Boxer primed cartridges for me.

How can you intermix Berdan and boxer when the Berdan primer relies on an anvil that is part of the case???

mark85304 · Nov 25, 2013

As you can see, the Berdan primer can easily fit in the Boxer cup, but there is no anvil in the primer pocket against which the primer mixture can work. In firearms that have a weak firing pin spring these may not fire due to insufficient strike pressure on the primer. A good strike against the primer has resulted in ignition in some cases.

On the other hand, the dimple in the Boxer primer's anvil can fit over the primer pocket anvil in some cartridge/primer combinations. I have had some Boxer primers go off when seating them in a Berdan pocket when I inadvertently tried to reload a Berdan primed case, but others were just fine. It all depends on how tall and what shape the Berdan anvil is.

David Sinko · Nov 26, 2013

I have a large quantity of .310" Hornady Z-Max. I hate losing my Boxer primed x39 brass so I will begin loading Berdan primed steel cases primarily for field use. As a favor to a friend I am considering buying a x54R die set and loading some Z-Max for him. I have a small quantity of Boxer primed brass for the x54R and I see a lot of Berdan primed steel at the range. I am figuring the steel x54R cases can also be deprimed by the hydraulic method, if necessary. I just might try this to find out whether or not the x39 specific primers will work or not.

I have read of instances where handloaders will drill out the anvil of a Berdan case and then super glue a Boxer primer in the pocket. I tried this one time with x39 and it did work. I wouldn't want to do this as a matter of routine but it seems it would work in an emergency.

Dave Sinko

mark85304 · Nov 26, 2013

David Sinko said:
I have a small quantity of Boxer primed brass for the x54R and I see a lot of Berdan primed steel at the range. I am figuring the steel x54R cases can also be deprimed by the hydraulic method, if necessary. I just might try this to find out whether or not the x39 specific primers will work or not.
Dave Sinko

If you try to resize the steel cases, you will find them very difficult to resize and use lots of case lube. I'm not sure the steel cases expand much when fired, but fire them a few times and they might need resizing. However, if you are shooting them in the same chamber each time, you may only need to neck size them.

Jaymo · Nov 26, 2013

You can use a nail set to punch a hole in the Berdan primer, between the anvil and side of the primer pocket, and then use the nail set to lever it out of the pocket.
This comes from a website I saw. Forget which site. The author said it was quicker and easier than using the Berdan decapping tool.

Don't forget, there are also a LOT of Berdan primed brass cases out there. They are normally European.

Funny thing, Tulammo steel cased pistol ammo (at least .40 and .45 auto) use Boxer primers. I decap these with my regular decapping die.
I plan on loading .45 Super in them for my Ruger Blackhawk .45 Convertible.

What makes Berdan rifle primers different?

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