I'm working on using a thumbs forward grip with my new shield. I'm having trouble maintaining my grip with the support hand after each shot. I'm resting my thumb on the takedown lever to try and keep it steady but with the recoil it slips off each time. Is this something that will get better with practice or do I need to do something differently? Is it a matter of grip strength?
Maintaining proper grip
- Thread starter chele519
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blackhorse2010
Member
Most people grip the gun with the firing hand and just place the support hand so it goes along for a ride.
My wife is 4'11" and has small hands, so maintaining a proper grip is critical.
Hard to argue with Bob Vogel:
https://youtu.be/45QhpvY9LZc
My wife is 4'11" and has small hands, so maintaining a proper grip is critical.
Hard to argue with Bob Vogel:
https://youtu.be/45QhpvY9LZc
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bigwheelzip
Absent Comrade
Many people wrap the grip with grip tape or a pre-formed grip sleeve. A good firm press of the support hand palm on the exposed grip area and a tight squeeze works good for me on a 9mm Shield.
Maybe I misunderstand your describing your grip, but I think your support hand is up to high.
I think the support hand should be firmly around the fingers of the grip hand doing about 60% of the gripping. Extending the fingers of the grip hand, the fingers should point in a slightly down word angle. One thumb below the other.
Works for me. But I have larger hands.
I think the support hand should be firmly around the fingers of the grip hand doing about 60% of the gripping. Extending the fingers of the grip hand, the fingers should point in a slightly down word angle. One thumb below the other.
Works for me. But I have larger hands.
I don't seem to have a problem with the rest of my hand, just the thumb so I don't know that grip tape would make a difference, my thumb wants to rest along the trigger guard instead of straight ahead. I was reading about using the support hand with a push/pull grip and I had much better groupings doing that right off the bat, it's just that my thumb kind of flies off after the shot. I'll have to try with my thumb lower and the other thumb crossed over instead of just straight along the slide.
bigwheelzip
Absent Comrade
The grip tape or wrap from a company like Talon makes the weapon stick in your hand and not move so much, thus your thumbs stay where you put them. The very experienced shooter, Hickock45, of YouTube fame made a point recently of stressing how valuable grip tape is to him on his Glock43 review.
Rastoff
US Veteran
I guess things like tape and rubber grips can help, but they won't cure grip issues.
I don't use as high a support hand as Bob Vogel does, but he is right about using a high grip. The lower you can get the bore in your hand, the easier it will be to control recoil.
A quality grip is made with two fingers and the heel of the shooting hand. It is supported with three fingers and the heel of the support hand. Both the pinkies and thumbs should be relaxed.
I suspect that your support thumb is "jumping" off due to some downward force. If the thumb was relaxed, the likelihood of it heading off in wayward directions will be greatly reduced.
I don't use as high a support hand as Bob Vogel does, but he is right about using a high grip. The lower you can get the bore in your hand, the easier it will be to control recoil.
A quality grip is made with two fingers and the heel of the shooting hand. It is supported with three fingers and the heel of the support hand. Both the pinkies and thumbs should be relaxed.
I suspect that your support thumb is "jumping" off due to some downward force. If the thumb was relaxed, the likelihood of it heading off in wayward directions will be greatly reduced.
I'll do some reading on the grip tape. I watched one of Hickok's videos this morning, I liked him.
I don't think my thumbs were relaxed, when I relaxed them, the support hand thumb kind of drops down to rest near the trigger guard. I'm going to have to think about it a little more for next range trip.
I don't think my thumbs were relaxed, when I relaxed them, the support hand thumb kind of drops down to rest near the trigger guard. I'm going to have to think about it a little more for next range trip.
Rastoff
US Veteran
Here is my grip:
Not as forward as some of the modern combat shooting guys teach. Still, the thumbs are relaxed, but high. You don't want them so relaxed that they are just flopping around.
Not as forward as some of the modern combat shooting guys teach. Still, the thumbs are relaxed, but high. You don't want them so relaxed that they are just flopping around.
JMichaelTX
Member
chele, I think it is normal, to be expected, that your thumb will "slip off" due to the recoil, pitch up, of the gun after it has fired.
You can see that in this video, starting at 50 sec:
https://youtu.be/ylh4DyMADRU?t=50s
I don't know because I'm very much a new shooter, but I wonder if your thumb might be a bit high if you are putting it on the takedown lever?
For me, my thumb, pointing forward, naturally falls just at the top of the trigger guard where the frame bulges out. My support hand/thumb looks very much like the one in the above video.
Speaking of which, what do you pros think about the above/below video:
How To Properly Grip A Semi-Auto Pistol - Handgun 101 with Top Shot Champion Chris Cheng from the National Shooting Sports Foundation?
Does he show a good grip technique?
Do you agree with the 70/30 rule (70% of the grip pressure should be from the support hand)?
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chele, I am by no means a pro shooter. I think i am decent for my experience level but i KNOW FOR SURE, for me the grip tape makes a huge difference. I personally wont shoot without it. You can even put a small piece on your take down lever if you wish.
If you plan to try it out dont waste your money with talon or the others. Simply go to your local skateboard shop and buy a piece from them. Much cheaper and you can do more than just the grip if you want like the trigger guard or the takedown lever. The one thing i do not like about the talon (kother than price) is it wraps all teh way around your grip in one piece so you cant change backstraps if you want to. Just another option to try. Hope all works out for you. Talon grips=$17 plus shipping Skate shop $7 no shipping
If you plan to try it out dont waste your money with talon or the others. Simply go to your local skateboard shop and buy a piece from them. Much cheaper and you can do more than just the grip if you want like the trigger guard or the takedown lever. The one thing i do not like about the talon (kother than price) is it wraps all teh way around your grip in one piece so you cant change backstraps if you want to. Just another option to try. Hope all works out for you. Talon grips=$17 plus shipping Skate shop $7 no shipping
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Good illustration!Here is my grip:
Not as forward as some of the modern combat shooting guys teach. Still, the thumbs are relaxed, but high. You don't want them so relaxed that they are just flopping around.
Note the palm of the support hand is flat against the grip. The gun is held by pressing the palms together using upper arm strength. Attempting to hold the gun tightly with the ends of the fingers and thumbs makes it more likely to slip on recoil.
Comrad
Member
Are you a lefty? My grip looks like that but my right thumb is on top, I'm right handed.
I'm not a lefty, but the hands in the photo are illustrating a left hand grip. Just look at it with a mirror to reverse it.
Ole Joe Clark
Absent Comrade
There is no rule saying you must use a thumbs forward grip. I don't. Also, make sure you are comfortable and able to shoot your shield with one hand. In an actual defense scenario, there is a fairly good chance you'll fire one handed.
5 Lost Secrets of Combat Handgunnery | Gun Digest
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/defensive-shooting-fundamentals/
...
5 Lost Secrets of Combat Handgunnery | Gun Digest
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/defensive-shooting-fundamentals/
...
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A proper grip will reduce muzzle jump or flip. The muzzle of your Shield is probably jumping up and your thumb is staying where it was, therefore appearing to slide down. With a proper grip, your thumb should stay in the same location on the fame of your pistol.
There is a point or axis of rotation (upward) when a pistol recoils. The farther back your grip, the more rearward that axis is, and the more muzzle jump you will get. The more forward your grip, the more forward that axis of rotation. The more toward the center of the gun from back to front that axis is, the more you can control muzzle rise with a good grip.
Having a high grip has a similar influence on the axis, moving it up and therefore producing less rotation.
Don't bother to do this, but imagine gripping the gun with one hand, purposefully low, with your hand as much behind the gun as possible, and with a fairly loose grip. What do you think will happen to the muzzle if you shot?
Using your shooting hand alone, mostly behind the grip, will produce a rear located axis. You will get muzzle flip. This cannot be avoided.
Adding the second hand to the gun changes things dramatically if done correctly--moving the axis forward and higher. If the second hand is low, toward the rear, and too relaxed, it will have less effect on muzzle flip. While the second hand thumb is not really the critical component of a good grip, it is an indicator that the rest of the grip is working correctly.
The two keys to the second hand reducing muzzle flip are:
1. The meat of the second hand thumb fills the void on the grip between the shooting hand finger tips and the shooting hand thumb meat. This gives close to 100% grip coverage and control. There should be good pressure from both hands all around the grip. This may be difficult to do on small guns as the hands tend to be too large to properly grip. Practice a lot just grabbing and holding the gun without shooting until it feels "right", as secure as possible.
2. The fingers of the support hand do more to control muzzle flip than any other part of the grip. Their downward and rearward pressure on the grip (through the shooting hand fingers) make the biggest difference. Like riding a bike, you will find a grip that feels just right, with comfortable control, if you keep practicing without even firing.
The placement of your thumb(s) pointed at the target actually helps you to point the gun more naturally, but they don't contribute to recoil management. The more forward that second hand thumb is, the easier it is to point toward the target.
What I find helps with that is to rotate the second hand thumb meat upward as high on the grip as possible. This allows me to comfortably lay my second hand thumb along the frame right at the juncture of the slide.
As well, I have found it helps to rotate my shooting hand grip slightly around the rear of the grip so it's thumb can rest on top of the rear of the second hand thumb and along the frame (thus pointing at the target). On a small gun like the Shield this also improves trigger finger placement so you use the end pad rather than the joint of your finger on the trigger. Part of your shooting hand will come off the grip slightly just behind the trigger. That's OK. Your fingers pulling the gun back into the rear part of the grip--your palm and thumb--is what will give you the best stability with just one hand.
After trying to put all these elements together for a few days practicing at home, one day everything just felt right. I went and shot. The gun pointed naturally and quickly, and muzzle rise, even with the Shield, was greatly reduced. My hands and thumbs stayed in place. When I got this same grip on my FS M&P 9, the gun hardly moved upon firing.
Sorry I don't have a photo, but this grip is the same as what you will see in instructional videos of the high, forward grip. Done correctly, it works to keep the gun steady and pointed in at the target, including immediately after recoil. Your thumbs will stay in place along the side of the gun.
I hope this doesn't sound too complex. The videos I have seen show the grip but do not explain the elements very well. Good shooting!
There is a point or axis of rotation (upward) when a pistol recoils. The farther back your grip, the more rearward that axis is, and the more muzzle jump you will get. The more forward your grip, the more forward that axis of rotation. The more toward the center of the gun from back to front that axis is, the more you can control muzzle rise with a good grip.
Having a high grip has a similar influence on the axis, moving it up and therefore producing less rotation.
Don't bother to do this, but imagine gripping the gun with one hand, purposefully low, with your hand as much behind the gun as possible, and with a fairly loose grip. What do you think will happen to the muzzle if you shot?
Using your shooting hand alone, mostly behind the grip, will produce a rear located axis. You will get muzzle flip. This cannot be avoided.
Adding the second hand to the gun changes things dramatically if done correctly--moving the axis forward and higher. If the second hand is low, toward the rear, and too relaxed, it will have less effect on muzzle flip. While the second hand thumb is not really the critical component of a good grip, it is an indicator that the rest of the grip is working correctly.
The two keys to the second hand reducing muzzle flip are:
1. The meat of the second hand thumb fills the void on the grip between the shooting hand finger tips and the shooting hand thumb meat. This gives close to 100% grip coverage and control. There should be good pressure from both hands all around the grip. This may be difficult to do on small guns as the hands tend to be too large to properly grip. Practice a lot just grabbing and holding the gun without shooting until it feels "right", as secure as possible.
2. The fingers of the support hand do more to control muzzle flip than any other part of the grip. Their downward and rearward pressure on the grip (through the shooting hand fingers) make the biggest difference. Like riding a bike, you will find a grip that feels just right, with comfortable control, if you keep practicing without even firing.
The placement of your thumb(s) pointed at the target actually helps you to point the gun more naturally, but they don't contribute to recoil management. The more forward that second hand thumb is, the easier it is to point toward the target.
What I find helps with that is to rotate the second hand thumb meat upward as high on the grip as possible. This allows me to comfortably lay my second hand thumb along the frame right at the juncture of the slide.
As well, I have found it helps to rotate my shooting hand grip slightly around the rear of the grip so it's thumb can rest on top of the rear of the second hand thumb and along the frame (thus pointing at the target). On a small gun like the Shield this also improves trigger finger placement so you use the end pad rather than the joint of your finger on the trigger. Part of your shooting hand will come off the grip slightly just behind the trigger. That's OK. Your fingers pulling the gun back into the rear part of the grip--your palm and thumb--is what will give you the best stability with just one hand.
After trying to put all these elements together for a few days practicing at home, one day everything just felt right. I went and shot. The gun pointed naturally and quickly, and muzzle rise, even with the Shield, was greatly reduced. My hands and thumbs stayed in place. When I got this same grip on my FS M&P 9, the gun hardly moved upon firing.
Sorry I don't have a photo, but this grip is the same as what you will see in instructional videos of the high, forward grip. Done correctly, it works to keep the gun steady and pointed in at the target, including immediately after recoil. Your thumbs will stay in place along the side of the gun.
I hope this doesn't sound too complex. The videos I have seen show the grip but do not explain the elements very well. Good shooting!
Jerry Miculek also demonstrates grip, and also uses a Shield in an example further into the vid.
https://youtu.be/ChSazF41q-s
https://youtu.be/ChSazF41q-s
