The Ghost and the Darkness

Michael Douglas? Hey that's Hollywood, it still a good movie. I read Patterson's book, great story. Got to give him credit, he had balls. That 303 was his go-to gun for all his hunting. Me, I'm hunting maneating lions, I'd be carrying something a lot bigger than a 303.

65Whelen said:

Michael Douglas? Hey that's Hollywood, it still a good movie. I read Patterson's book, great story. Got to give him credit, he had balls. That 303 was his go-to gun for all his hunting. Me, I'm hunting maneating lions, I'd be carrying something a lot bigger than a 303.

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He also had a .450.

Jim Corbett shot some tigers with .275's, the 7X57mm with John Rigby 's patented bullets.

Posts like these, gets me re-interested in my Enfield Rifles, a wire-wrapped grenade launching SMLE, and the legendary No. 4 Rifle. Thanks for the great posts and photos everyone!

David

les.b said:

Ha! I should be ashamed to post my wanna-be Lee-Speed, but here it is anyway. As described above, in post #4.



(I tried to get the box of Woodleighs to show up along with the clip of Greek ammo, but the sun blurred it out. These 215 gr bullets are difficult to obtain, but are worth the wait and expense.)

Now here's the neat thing, Wyo: I have been developing loads also, and shooting Greek surplus ammo!! And I had come to the same conclusion that you did... The Woodleigh 215 gr bullet at about 2,000 DPS was the ticket!!! And I ordered a case of the nice quality Greek stuff on stripper clips when Cheaper Than Dirt had it about a year or so ago. I have brass from all the major companies, and have found that the Greek stuff is my favorite for reloading. I agree that this is a great caliber, and the nostalgia factor is a big part of the fun. I still have my eyes open for a real Lee-Speed, but until I can find one in good condition for a reasonable price, I'll just play around with my converted military .303.

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Parker-Hale made some sporterized SMLE and No. 4 rifles that were more evolved, using new Monte Carlo stocks that were pretty nicely checkered.

I've not seen one in the USA, but Hudson's Bay Co. had some when I was stationed in Canada in 1966. I wanted one, but doubted that they 'd sell to an American, and I already had two rifles that I brought with me. And I bought a Colt .45 auto and a Remington M-1100 shotgun in the BX while there. That was a lot to ship home on my modest salary as a junior airman.

But one of those completely reworked No. 4 rifles was a temptation, and if the BX had sold them, I'd have probably found a way to fit one into the budget. Off-base, I had to deal with Canadian laws and higher prices.

Price was about $50, but that was more money then than now.

If you find one of these, it'd make a good hunting rifle. But I prefer the looks of the Lee-Speed and similar British hunting rifles built on the SMLE action. The Lee-Speed (Speed was a person) rifles were often built on Lee-Metford and Lee-Enfield carbine actions for lighter weight, which is why many had flat bolt handles. I think they were meant to lie flatter in a saddle scabbard.

I'd love to find one of the better BSA sporters or a custom one from, say, Holland & Holland.

I haven't seen Norma ammo in years. Is it still imported? It was accurate & a little hotter than domestic .303 ammo. I like the Winchester 180 grain load because I like the bullet shape, which just looks classic. I don't think it reaches the stated muzzle velocity. Tests in magazine articles show about 2350 FPS. But that's enough for most game as far out as most men have any business shooting at living animals with iron-sighted rifles. It's certainly a little better than a .30-30.
Canadian hunters have killed a lot of moose with .303's.

Here is my BSA sporter. Very similar to the one in the movie. This one has a full length rib on the barrel.

That is the one movie that gave my oldest boy nightmares. We watched it when he was about ten, and already the veteran of horror movies much worse than this one. It really bothered him - I found him sitting at the top of the stairs crying about it. I figured it was the violence of the lions eating people, but that wasn't it. What really got him were the scenes of the lions moving through the grass - first invisible, then barely visible, then invisible again. That got into his little brain and stayed. He still won't watch it, and he's 24.

Thanks for posting this. My wife and I watched the movie again last night, and I was wondering what kind of rifle that was.

ls.

This movie and Zulu are my two favorite ones!!!

Wasnt Jim Corbett brought in but left?

Joseph Speed was a designer and later on the Supt at the RSAF/Enfield.
His best known (seen) design is probably the detachable 10rd box magazine used on the Lee Metford to take the place of the straight line 8rd magazine. It became standard on the LeeEnfield and SMLE.

The 'Lee-Speed' Sporters were made by BSA (Birmingham Small Arms) and LSA (London Small Arms). They were retail marked by dozens of companys.

Options were many. Metford rifling, Enfield rifling, Enfield safety (thumb safety on the cocking piece,,another Jos.Speed design), rifle or carbine stlye bolt handle, BSA tang safety, 5 or 10 shot magazine, 3 or more different bbl styles, sight choices, and on & on.
The retailers would add to the list of options and tailor the gun even further for the customer like adding 'scope options among them.

The older 'Long Lee' action w/bolt dust cover is the most common. These had no provision for stripper clip loading as they had not been invented yet.
After 1904, the SMLE MkI action could be ordered and built into the sporter. It uses a sliding charger guide and dispenses with the dust cover.
After 1907, the now familiar fixed charger guide bridge came into use on the SMLE and that could be ordered as a LeeSpeed action also.
Interestingly, BSA still showed the older dustcover style long lee action available for a LeeSpeed sporter in their 1914 catalog. 7 years into the fixed charger bridge SMLE era.
They also offered MkI* sliding charger guide SMLE rifles and CCLE rifles for civilian purchase at that time.

303 is the most common caliber in the Lee Speed.
375NE is probably the most sought after
It was cataloged in '8mm',,that being 8x50R,,the Austrian Infantry issue cartridge.
I've seen 7mm (Mauser?) listed and also 32-40WCF in print.

I have two Lee Speed rifles in 303.
One in 35/303,,it came already rebored to 35cal and with an SMLE bolt in it. An OGCA find for $150 I couldn'tpass up as I already had a nice carbine style bolt for it. It needs final headspaceing done which I haven't got around to, so in the mean time I pulled the bbl off and put one of those SMLE 410 Musket bbls on it.
Shoots 2 1/2" 410 just fine and even feeds the the second round from the mag.,,,,,more projects to work on..

I had another Lee Speed (303) but a buyer from Cabellas waved a lot of money in front of me at a weak moment a couple years ago at a show so that one went down the road.
Still have commercial BSA's MkI* SMLE (1904 style) and CLLE (Charger Loading Lee Enfield.
All in all some of my favorite rifles to shoot.
I'll see if I can get picture cam working

model70hunter said:

Wasnt Jim Corbett brought in but left?

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Very unlikely. That wouldn't have worked out timeline-wise. The Tsavo story played out in 1898, when Corbett was only 23 and was working as a lowly railroad employee. His career as a hunter of man-eaters didn't start until the next decade.

If you would like to see a bunch of Lee Speeds go overto the nitroexpress.com website and scroll down to the Lee Speed forum and there they are. Frank

I remember arguing with myself for a couple of years about a doggy Lee Speed in 8x50R offered at a local pawn shop. No finish, bad bore, somewhat discombobulated in the British tradition(abnormally long barrel with abnormally short forearm). Not just finish wear but severe external abuse,...........and a $500 price tag kept me from picking it up.

Here are a few random catalog scans from my Lee Speed file,....

kaveman said:

I remember arguing with myself for a couple of years about a doggy Lee Speed in 8x50R offered at a local pawn shop. No finish, bad bore, somewhat discombobulated in the British tradition(abnormally long barrel with abnormally short forearm). Not just finish wear but severe external abuse,...........and a $500 price tag kept me from picking it up.

Here are a few random catalog scans from my Lee Speed file,....

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Wow! I don't know the exact year that these pages date to, but if I remember correctly £200 was a lot of money around 1900... I believe the exchange rate was about $5.00 to the pound, so that would be about $1,000.00 ??? Am I off? It's been a long day and I may be all backwards on this. American rifles were selling for under a hundred dollars even for upscale ones at that time in history also. Just thinking out loud..... Maybe that is the price in shillings, at 20 to the pound, that would make 200 = to £10, or about $50. That would make more sense.

I think the prices are in shillings. But money bought a lot more then, so even a $50 gun was expensive. Check US gun prices then. I think a Colt SAA or a typical DA Colt was about $20.

And a great many British officers came from noble families or were otherwise wealthy, as were civilians who could hunt in Africa or in India. Civil servant s also bought some.303 sporting rifles, often not being able to afford the custom rifles from H&H, Westley Richards, etc.

Finely made rifles, esp. the famous name doubles, usually had prices quoted in Guineas, not in pounds.

Why have .315/8mm rifles? Because in 1907, the law in India forbade civilians owning rifles in military calibers. That meant .303, .450, and one other caliber, which I've forgotten. Maybe .577, because of old Sniders.

That's why we got cartridges like the .465 and .470. They weren't necessarily any better than the .450 Nitro Express cartridges, but were legal in India.

I think maybe military officers were exempt from the caliber ban.

Saw the movie ,scared me both times. Big cat wimp

Caught part of the movie last night. Thanks to these great posts and a good movie, the part I saw, I'm ordering it off Amazon. Great posts here!

David