AR pistols...I'm debating

Rock185 said:

....rifle caliber "pistols"...they always seemed pretty impractical to me.

Click to expand...

If we only owned practical we'd only own a few.

There is some practicality here in WA because it is illegal to carry a loaded long-gun in a vehicle. The AR pistol allows you to have a rifle caliber gun loaded while in your car or truck. True that it only takes a second to pick up the magazine right there on the seat (legally) next to the rifle and load it, but if you wanted faster then the pistol is the only way to go.

PatriotX said:

The ATF may disagree with you.


ATF Says Shouldering SigTac Brace Illegal - Grand View Outdoors


Letter from ATF:

https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download

Click to expand...

Do you see a Sig brace in that photo?

I only see the buffer tube.

AR Pistols - Handy Truck Guns!

Mine is a PSA 10.5" upper on a Bushmaster lower with a KAK brace. I think they are a lot of fun to shoot. I honestly don't notice any obnoxious muzzle flash. My son has an 11.5" and an 8.5", both from PSA, uppers and lowers. They definitely make great truck guns, easy in and out of the vehicle or through a window (where legal), for those of us who live in rural America and have a real use for such things.

My 10.5"


My son's 8.5"


His 11.5"


firing my 10.5" at dusk - muzzle flash is there but not excessive. Screen shot from video.

I built one in 9mm 8.5 in barrel. Same caliber as carry pistol. Put a red dot on it. Surprising accurate at distance plus maybe a little more vel. And less noise. Like the old cowboys one caliber.

Mainsail said:

Do you see a Sig brace in that photo?

I only see the buffer tube.

Click to expand...

Read the letter. One could say the user has "redesigned" the buffer tube into a shoulder stock and is covered by NFA.

The letter is very interesting. While I knew about constructive intent, I didn't know use alone could make an unregulated device into an AOW, e.g. a nail gun.

I wanted a .223 handgun for coyote hunting. Ruled out a Thompson Contender because I wanted a fast follow up shot.

Came to the conclusion that an AR15 based gun was too bulky.

Went with a Kel-Tec PLR-16, which uses an op rod gas system. The gun has a plastic upper and lower receiver, the only plastic gun I own. Barrel length is 9.5". Keep that length in mind when loudness is discussed.

It handles well and balances similar to a large S&W with a long barrel with full underlug.

Recoil is less than a .357 Magnum in an heavy L or N frame, and muzzle lift is about the same. (A compensator is available, but it actually works too good and shoves the barrel lower, requiring the shooter to bring it up.)

Accuracy is good enough to confidently hit a coyote at 100 yards.

Here's the fly in the ointment. I knew it was going to be loud, but underestimated just how loud. It's one of the most obnoxious guns I've ever fired. I think it's a lot worse than a .30 Carbine Blackhawk. Have to wear both quality muffs AND ear plugs. Was planning on wearing electronic muffs, but by themselves they are not enough to protect your hearing. And that's the problem. I need to hear what's going on around me when hunting.

So, unfortunately, it became a range toy. And since it was a range toy, I sent it to an SOT to covert to an AOW, so I could legally put a forward vertical grip on it. If I had converted it, the tax stamp would have been $200. The SOT could do it for $5, though the gun was at his shop for 9 months waiting for the tax stamp to be issued.

The muzzle flash with some ammo is watermelon size. And like I said, the report is incredibly loud. You can feel the muzzle blast concussion against your chest.

Suppressor? Sure. I put my .308 suppressor on it. It reduced the blast to about normal .223 levels, or maybe a bit less to .22 Hornet levels. Got hotter than Hades within only a few rounds. And badly unbalanced the gun. The latter point is something to consider. The weight of the suppressor made it barely tolerable for handling as an AOW, but almost impossible to use as a pistol. My suppressor is all carbon steel. Maybe a titanium .223 rated suppressor might help with balance, but it's still going to be a lot of weight on the muzzle of a handgun for balance.

So, in a nutshell, the points are:

Incredibly loud. The word "painfully" is not out of place.

Badly balances with a suppressor.

Fun range toy.


Kel-Tec PLR-16 factory bone stock.


PLR-16 AOW range toy.

Y'all go on up ahead without me. A collapsible stock M 4gery does everything in a small package a pistol could, only better. And no worries about .gov tools busting my shorts with scrutiny. Joe

Old Corp said:

.
- There is no enforceable law requiring you to hold a pistol a certain way at the moment of firing. .

Click to expand...

Correct. There is no law saying how one should hold a handgun during firing. Only says how one shouldn't.

On January 17, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives issued an open letter saying that shooters who build an AR-style pistol using the SB-15 Pistol Stabilizing Brace and fire the pistol from the shoulder are in effect “redesigning” the pistol into a short barrelled rifle which is subject to a special license and tax samp.

In March of last year, the ATF said in a publicly-released letter that shouldering the SB-15 brace, distributed by Sig Sauer, was perfectly legal and did not turn a pistol into a short barrelled rifle.

But the new letter throws out the ATF’s previous opinion.

“The pistol stabilizing brace was neither ‘designed’ nor approved to be used as a shoulder stock, and therefore use as a shoulder stock constitutes a ‘redesign’ of the device because a possessor has changed the very function of the item,” the January 17 ATF letter says. “Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked.”



In your hand you can hold it anyway you want. What you can't do is shoulder it, which is not holding


Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Jessie said:

I like bacon! Tell me about this flaming pig. I think I may need a translator.

Click to expand...

Noveske Flaming Pig.. inverted cone that takes the muzzle blast and diverts it into the can and greatly reduces the the flash.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrdojpFUp4c[/ame]

I have one of each. One as a pistol, the other as a firearm.


The 7" is a bit more fun and we also use it with a 22lr conversion.

The other shoots as smooth and as accurately as a full sized carbine and just loses a little bit of stability shooting unsupported.

One is more fun, the other more practical.

The kid with the little guy/22 conversion:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShO2KYmRviM[/ame]

Banging some rounds out with the other:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjnvgKBSSCk[/ame]

These led me into submitting a form one for an SBR.

If you're going to only have one the 10.5-12" guns are more practical.

The 7" is a literal blast to shoot.
Screenshot_2014-11-26-11-04-59 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr

shocker said:

Read the letter. One could say the user has "redesigned" the buffer tube into a shoulder stock and is covered by NFA.

The letter is very interesting. While I knew about constructive intent, I didn't know use alone could make an unregulated device into an AOW, e.g. a nail gun.

Click to expand...

I read the letter, it has nothing to do with the buffer tube. The Sig brace is relatively new while the buffer tube pistol has been around for many years. The buffer tube is also 'cheeked' not shouldered. If you can find a reliable source for a report of a single arrest for cheeking a buffer tube I guess I'll have to admit I'm wrong. If not, then you might consider it.

I, like many others remain amazed that a government regulatory authority, ie, the ATF could issue one directive, and then some months later issue another, countermanding the first.

You can't make this stuff up.

Actually, at the time the Sig PM400 'wrist brace' model came out, I was working at a LGS that got some of the first. I along with several experienced old retired LE guys working there were very surprised that something of that design would have gotten the ATF stamp of approval, but also held a sneaking suspicion that it may be short-lived. (One guy, retired ATF, stated 'Wow. Not in my day....")
And, as I mentioned, at the time I lived in a county wherein the CLEO/Sheriff was completely allergic to signing off on any NFA items.
Those two circumstances led me to go ahead and get one.

Currently, I'm in a rural area, have my own range and other than by use of a surveillance drone, don't think anyone would see, or even care that I shoulder it regularly.
And, what's funny - I'm not even a big AR fan-guy. They're OK, but I never got into all the drooling over them.

I bought a sig p556 because they are cool.after shooting it, it's still cool but very impractical for accurate shooting as is.tried a sling to help stabilize but didn't work for me.read up on the sig brace and bought one.worked great and atf didn't have a problem with them.apparently so many people asked atf can I put a brace on this? and that? shotguns?blah blah blah etc.forcing them to make a ruling hence the letter stating it's illegal to shoulder the weapon with a brace.some say they don't have the authority legally to create this law only to enforce laws.I don't want to be the one in court to try this or to be hassled or get charged with a weapons felony debating whether I put a brace against my shoulder or not.I spend ,just like all of you, a pretty good amount of money on weapons ,ammo,optics,etc.so what the heck,I spent the 200 bucks to make it a SBR and added a vertical grip and it works great and the cool factor is way up there.now I am very happy with it.But if I had to it all over again I would just buy the shortest rifle and call it good.

photos

photo

I haven't read every word of every post so my apologies if this has already been brought up but I see fore-grips on some of these "pistols" and as best I recall a fore-grip on a pistol categorizes it as an AOW (any other weapon) subject to the NFA (National Firearms Act) with one caveat and that is as long as the overall length of the "pistol" is more than 26" then it is NOT subject to the NFA rules regarding AOW's. A quick look at some of the "pistols" displayed and the specifications from some manufacturers suggest at least some of these are less than 26" overall length. I am not a lawyer or NFA expert. Please weight in on this matter. It is amazing at the, minutia and triviality regarding the rules we are subject to.

g8rb8 said:

I haven't read every word of every post so my apologies if this has already been brought up but I see fore-grips on some of these "pistols" and as best I recall a fore-grip on a pistol categorizes it as an AOW (any other weapon) subject to the NFA (National Firearms Act) with one caveat and that is as long as the overall length of the "pistol" is more than 26" then it is NOT subject to the NFA rules regarding AOW's. A quick look at some of the "pistols" displayed and the specifications from some manufacturers suggest at least some of these are less than 26" overall length. I am not a lawyer or NFA expert. Please weight in on this matter. It is amazing at the, minutia and triviality regarding the rules we are subject to.

Click to expand...

A vertical fore grip on a handgun makes it an AOW (Any Other Weapon) and it requires a tax stamp to own. Mine (the pic of the PLR-16 with the red background) has an AOW tax stamp. Without the tax stamp you risk time at Club Fed and loss of gun rights forever.

Does anyone with a chrono have numbers for a 7.5" shooting 55 gr.?

Jessie:

I strongly suggest your best alternative is to go through the procedure to register an AR lower as an SBR. The cost is $200 tax plus the cost of marking the receiver, whatever that may be. The benefit is not having to worry whether you have broken one of the many ATF rulings and federal statutes.

I have a fully registered M16A1. There is no restriction on barrel length of a machinegun, so I get to use it with any short upper I wish. The short ones are the uppers that get used. I have a 10.5" 9mm SMG upper, a 11.5" 5.56mm Commando upper, and a 12.5" .300 AAC Blackout upper. I think the Blackout is probably my favorite.

I have two disadvantages from the fact that my platform is a machinegun compared to an SBR. First, it's not legal to hunt with a machinegun whereas an SBR is legal for hunting; and second, ATF permission is required to travel across any state line with a machinegun and not with an SBR (at least I don't think so).

The fact is, I rarely fire my M16 full auto. It's best FA is with the 9mm setup and worst as a 5.56mm. In many ways I would be better served with an SBR. I would not play the "pistol" game. I don't like skating on thin ice where the law is concerned.

So if you go through the process and relatively minor expense of registering an SBR all your worries are gone and you have a lot of flexibility.

Here's mine with the .300 BLK setup:





Here's the 9mm setup. This photo is from the Colt website - not my gun. Colt 9mm Submachine Gun (SMG) I didn't have a handy photo to post.




And here's the 5.56mm Commando setup. Photo also from Colt website Colt M4 Commando & R0923CQB




Last, for a comparison of length, here's a photo of three of my uppers - 1) the original 20" M16 5.56mm upper; 2) the 5.56mm Commando upper; and 3) the 9mm SMG upper.





You probably know, any of these uppers will work on any standard small-pin semi-auto lower. On a semi-auto AR lower they will not fire full-auto. Thus, they are just fine on a registered SBR.

Curl

I had 2 AR pistols. One I sold, and the other I put on a Form 1 and is now a SBR. I much prefer the stock, but I kind of miss the legal flexibility you get with the "pistol" when you go by the laws of most states. I'm planning an AR pistol lower build again when I can afford it for just that reason. Still, as fun as they are, the SBR is way more practical in the same size package. I had a new barrel put on mine to change over to .300 blackout not ling ago. Great little HD and SHTF gun.