Bullet seating depth confusion.

I worked up a dummy round .38 X-treme 158gr RNFP copper plated. I used a FM round 158gr RNFP to set the seater die but the result was the case rim was far above the crimping grove. When I set the bullet so the rim was near the top of the grove the Minimum Overall Length was too short. FM and X-treme are related companies I think. Today FM is reloading with X-treme bullets. The FM .38 ammo I have I bought 2-3 years ago. I assume FM was using X-treme bullets at that time. I sent X-treme an email today as follows:

"I am just beginning to reload. In late October I ordered 2750 bullets-.38 special, 158 grain, RNFP. I have shot Freedom Munitions reloads in the past and saved my brass which is "mixed". I assembled a dummy round today. I began by setting the bullet setter die to the same length as a FM factory reload 158gr RNFP. Then I seated a X-treme bullet of the same size at the same depth as the FM case. However the crimping grove was far above the mouth of the case. No way the rim would be able to crimp in what I assume is a crimping grove. So I kept adjusting the die to seat the bullet deeper until the rim was close to the top of the crimping grove-maybe a bit still too high but close. The OAL of the cartridge is much shorter than the FM cartridge which may be a bullet producted by X-treme. I bought the FM ammo 2-3 years ago. I don't know if FM was using X-treme bullets at that time or if the bullet design has changed. OAL for the FM cartridge is 1.439/1.440 and the OAL of the dummy round with the X-treme bullet is 1.399/1.400. Lee reloading guide has 158 gr lead bullet using Bullseye a Minimum Overall Length of 1.440. Lyman has a 158gr JHP an OAL (don't know if this is minimum, maximum or average) of 1.480 and a 158gr lead with a flat point of 1.445 OAL. So I am at a bit of a loss as to what I'm doing wrong. The OAL of the dummy cartriage with the X-treme 158gr RNFP is seated much deeper than the same bullet seated in the FM ammo. I assume seated this deep will result in very high to dangerous pressure. This is range ammo and per your advice I will work up loads using Bullseye from 3.5gr to 4.0. Do I seat the X-treme bullets the same depth as FM to 1.440 and not crimp in the crimping grove. I will crimp with the Lee Factory Crimp Die. I hope I have explained by question adequately."

Any guidance as how I go about getting the correct bullet seating depth is greatly appreciated. If I crimp in what is the only grove in the bullet I assume I will have severe pressure problems. Do I forget the crimping grove and use the Lee FDC and light crimp at the same location as the FM ammo but not be within a crimping grove?

Load to the cannelure, you'll be fine.

Do not exceed maximum overall length because your loaded round will not fit in the cylinder. Do not seat the bullet below the cannelure ring. For rimmed revolver cartridges, use a roll crimp that "sets" the case rim into the cannelure.

A little roll crimp works fine, a heavy roll crimp may bulge the case mouth cause the round to be difficult to insert into the cylinder. If you check 3 reloading manuals, you will get three different cartridge lengths. Cartridge OAL is a suggested value that might have to be adjusted to work with your bullet.

Fortunately in this 'case'.......

COAL/Bullet seating depth for the .38 special is very forgiving. Seating on the shank (side) of the bullet below the ogive is ok and if there's a cannelure, that's a good place to be. Some profile of bullets in semi auto (with a very round nose) need to be seated with the junction of the ogive/shank below the mouth of the case. It looks funny, but if seated out farther the nose of the bullet will hit the rifling. There's never a safety problem with seating a bullet OUT more than recommended as long as it fits the chamber. The reason the .38 is forgiving is that being an old black powder cartridge and low pressure (compared to many small semi auto rounds) there is plenty of room in the case for gas expansion of smokeless powder.

Just a note: In high pressure cartridges such as the 9mm luger, .40 S&W and 10mm seating a bullet a little too deep can cause pressures to spike dangerously.

The different nose contours is why they didn't match. As stated, just seat the current bullet to the cannelure & you should be good.

COAL" isn't that critical on a 38 Special. Even on bullets without a cannelure you have plenty of leeway, within reason.

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Xtreme 357 bullets SWC-RNFP-TNFP

(-01b)

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Agree w/ all. In .38 Spl, I've crimped to the groove, and over the shoulder of LSWCs and WCs. It doesn't make a ton of difference, because by seating deep, you're only reducing the case volume by a small fraction. As others have pointed out, in a smaller case like .380, 9mm, or .40, it's a lot more critical.

But with revolver cartridges, you can presume that the moldmaker put the crimp groove in the right place.

What is confusing to a Newbie is the X-treme bullet I seated I think (or thought) was the same bullet in the FM-same company, both .38 Sp, 158gr RNFP. I don't know why the cannelure is so much higher in the case of X-treme I bought over Black Friday than the FM that I bought a couple of years ago. I would think their manufacturing process would be more exact than than that. Maybe my email will answer this question. Thanks for the responses.
Mike

If the crimp groove isn't in the same place, it's not the same bullet. Honestly, all you've done by looking at the Freedom cartridge is confuse yourself (and they're about the last place I'd look to duplicate ammunition from). Just trust the groove. Other things:

--The OAL listed in manuals is specific to the bullet and case used, and it only matters insofar as that's the minimum length they tested.

--Bullets of equal weight and design are not equal. Shape can vary a lot in the nose. Just because one bullet loaded properly has an OAL of, say, 1.250", doesn't mean that another bullet of the same weight and general type should be loaded to that length. If you move on to pistols, you can pretty much take OAL numbers and throw them right out the window, as there's no crimp groove and you'll have to work out OAL for your specific gun or a group of them. It's not as hard as it sounds--I think I spent maybe 30-45 minutes futzing around with a new die set and setting up OAL and crimp on a few guns last week, and that was across two cartridges and three or four pistols. Most of the time was disassembling guns and cleaning out barrels.

--I usually use midrange jacketed data for X-Treme's plated bullets, but I'm also only using them for autoloaders. I prefer lead for .38 Spl, as it's far more accurate and just as economical. If you're concerned about smoke, consider a coated lead bullet.

Most company's locate the "Can" on a bullet where they think it
will work for "Most" weapons, per their tests.

There might be a few weapons where this OAL will have to be "Adjusted" to work.

You need to find what is too long and too short for the bullet being used..........
vs the weapon that it is being used with.
The company has no control over this.

Safe loading.

In 1969 I reloaded some 38 Specials with a Lee Loader and I don't remember any reference to OAL. Besides my dial calipers were in my tool box at work so I just seated the bullets to the crimp groove (cast bullets). I figgered that was where the bullet needed to be (the bullet designers knew how deep he bullets should be and located the cannalure/groove accordingly) and I've used that method since; all revolver bullets are seated to the crimp groove or cannalure and as long as they fit the cylinder, I disregard book OAL...

mikld said:

In 1969 I reloaded some 38 Specials with a Lee Loader and I don't remember any reference to OAL. Besides my dial calipers were in my tool box at work so I just seated the bullets to the crimp groove (cast bullets). I figgered that was where the bullet needed to be (the bullet designers knew how deep he bullets should be and located the cannalure/groove accordingly) and I've used that method since; all revolver bullets are seated to the crimp groove or cannalure and as long as they fit the cylinder, I disregard book OAL...

Click to expand...

I pretty much never checked OAL on a .38 Spl for 40 years. But I always loaded LSWC or WC with a crimp groove. Load to the groove and go.

More recently I've been having an affair with some 125gr LRN that don't have a groove, though they do have a small shoulder. I have been checking the OAL on those but I can eyeball it to the shoulder.

bowzette said:

What is confusing to a Newbie is the X-treme bullet I seated I think (or thought) was the same bullet in the FM-same company, both .38 Sp, 158gr RNFP.
I don't know why the cannelure is so much higher in the case of X-treme I bought over Black Friday than the FM that I bought a couple of years ago.

Click to expand...

You're over thinking it. Keep it simple. Assume nothing.

If you want a different COAL" adjust your seating die & use a taper crimp (as I do on plated bullets no matter if it has a cannelure or not).

.

Absolutely.....

Wise_A said:

......

--Bullets of equal weight and design are not equal. Shape can vary a lot in the nose. Just because one bullet loaded properly has an OAL of, say, 1.250", doesn't mean that another bullet of the same weight and general type should be loaded to that length. If you move on to pistols, you can pretty much take OAL numbers and throw them right out the window, as there's no crimp groove and you'll have to work out OAL for your specific gun or a group of them. It's not as hard as it sounds--I think I spent maybe 30-45 minutes futzing around with a new die set and setting up OAL and crimp on a few guns last week, and that was across two cartridges and three or four pistols. Most of the time was disassembling guns and cleaning out barrels.

--I usually use midrange jacketed data for X-Treme's plated bullets, but I'm also only using them for autoloaders. I prefer lead for .38 Spl, as it's far more accurate and just as economical. If you're concerned about smoke, consider a coated lead bullet.

Click to expand...

Absolutely what I was getting at. In relating the story around the 'smallball' 9mm bullets I had to seat those DEEP in order for them to work at all, but a RN with a tapered nose can be seated at a COAL of 1.13" or even more w/o interference whereas anything over 1.06" with the smallball jams up the pistol. (aggravating mess. No more 'smallball' for me.)

glenwolde said:

... Load to the groove and go.

Click to expand...

That's a great quote, which pretty much sums it up.

Seat to the specific bullet, not a generic spec. And with that in mind, use the same bullet when you're adjusting your seating die, rather than a factory round that nominally seems to have the same bullet. Factory loads often use components that are very similar to, but not identical, to what we handloaders have access to.

Easiest thing is to simply put your first charged case in the shellholder, start with the seating die backed well out, and iteratively adjust it down until you have it seating to the depth you want. At that point, lock down the die and you're good to go.

rwsmith said:

Absolutely what I was getting at. In relating the story around the 'smallball' 9mm bullets I had to seat those DEEP in order for them to work at all, but a RN with a tapered nose can be seated at a COAL of 1.13" or even more w/o interference whereas anything over 1.06" with the smallball jams up the pistol. (aggravating mess. No more 'smallball' for me.)

Click to expand...

One of the new bullets I loaded was a Missouri Bullet Company "Parabellum" 9mm, which is a smallball design. I tucked it down to 1.08" (the length MBC specifies), and then hell froze over and I haven't been able to bring myself to shoot. They chamber fine, and fortunately, I only have to make them work in 39/59-series S&Ws.

My more traditional 9s are loaded real long--can't remember exactly how long off the top of my head. This is why I finally made the commitment to put together a real reloading log, complete with inventory sheets and printouts of online load data. It started at 40 pages

regaj said:

Easiest thing is to simply put your first charged case in the shellholder, start with the seating die backed well out, and interatively adjust it down until you have it seating to the depth you want. At that point, lock down the die and you're good to go.

Click to expand...

Basically what I do. Gotta watch not to back it out too far or the bullet will get picked up by the seating die instead of being seated!

Later on, you can take one of your own loaded bullets, back out the seat and crimp, put the cartridge on the shellholder, and simply tighten the adjustments until they stop. Close enough for government work, at least until you start trimming all your brass to length.

Wise_A said:

One of the new bullets I loaded was a Missouri Bullet Company "Parabellum" 9mm, which is a smallball design.

Click to expand...

Switch to their 9mm SWC Hi Tek bullet.
Missouri Bullet Company

You can load it to regular length, and I think it's more accurate than the "smallball" bullet.

Regaj said:

That's a great quote, which pretty much sums it up.

Seat to the specific bullet, not a generic spec. And with that in mind, use the same bullet when you're adjusting your seating die, rather than a factory round that nominally seems to have the same bullet. Factory loads often use components that are very similar to, but not identical, to what we handloaders have access to.

Easiest thing is to simply put your first charged case in the shellholder, start with the seating die backed well out, and interatively adjust it down until you have it seating to the depth you want. At that point, lock down the die and you're good to go.

Click to expand...

This what I did to make the dummy round when I discovered how much shorter the dummy was to the FM ammo which I thought was using the same X-treme bullet. I will get an answer from X-treme as to why there is a difference. But they must have changed the location of the crimping grove. At any rate the seating die is set to seat the bullet to the depth based upon the grove located on the bullets I bought.
Thanks

You know, someone could write a book larger than the "S" volume of an encyclopedia on COLs and the next day someone else would ask another question about COLs and there would be 50 different answers to that question.

OH, if there's no cannelure....

With old revolver cartridges, if there's no cannelure you can crimp slightly over the ogive.

JBnTx said:

Switch to their 9mm SWC Hi Tek bullet.
Missouri Bullet Company

You can load it to regular length, and I think it's more accurate than the "smallball" bullet.

Click to expand...

I wanted a 115gr, and it's not like setting up for a new bullet at 1.08" is any more effort than setting up for a new bullet at a longer length. I'd have preferred a semiwadcutter anyway, but I'm not going to go crazy over bullets for the 59/39s. Ditto for the coating--extra money to solve problems I don't have.