Model 1 gutta percha pistol cases

twaits said:
This is a little off subject but were "hard rubber" grips actually made out of natural rubber or something else?
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The first entirely synthetic plastic wasn't invented until the early 1900's (the data 1910 rattles around in my brain), so if we're referring to the hard rubber grips on guns from the latter half of the 19th century, then it would have to have been one of the natural, or semi-synthetic thermoplastics. Anecdotally, those grips seem to me to be a bit more durable than the thermoplastics we're talking about that were used in the gun cases and photo frames, but that's the only justification I can think of to suggest that it was anything different.

(this is a long way of saying -- I don't know. :-)

Mike
 
Mike, In your research on the subject did you ever come across any mention of a patent on the process, or formula, used to make these cases? I would think that whoever came up with the process might have had the smarts to patent his ( or her) idea, since it was used widely to fulfill the markets demand for the product. Ed ( James, I would be happy to donate a case for forensic analysis, however I'm fresh out of them, having used my last one to case an old Iver Johnson I sold to a pigeon for big bucks ! I will accept donations, however.)
 
Post #32 Bakelite was the world's first fully synthetic "thermoset" plastic invented in New York in 1907.

Bakelite was based on a chemical combination of phenol and formaldehyde (phenol-formaldehyde resin), two compounds that were derived from coal tar and wood alcohol (methanol), respectively, at that time. This made it the first truly synthetic resin, representing a significant advance over earlier plastics that were based on modified natural materials. Because of its excellent insulating properties, Bakelite was also the first commercially produced synthetic resin, replacing shellac and hard rubber in parts for the electric power industry as well as in home appliances.

Hard rubber was an early thermoset plastic made from natural rubber and sulfur. As you raised the percentage of sulfur, you got increasingly harder product. The hard rubber used in making S&W stocks was as much as 50% sulfur.

I found a couple of interesting commentaries on how shellac based plastic was made and it was basically wood fiber or powder and shellac. first was a old-time video that shows how the raw materials were formed into records. That segment starts at 2:55. [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UNa8bF6DP8[/ame] A second source states that the two main ingredients are shellac and wood powder. Both are combined by adding heat to make the basic thermoplastic and additives were used depending on the exact performance requirements.
 
I believe the hard rubber grips and other products such as mid-1800's bowling balls were made from a material known at the time as Vulcanite then, later to current, Ebonite. Ebonite is a compound of natural rubber, sulfur, linseed oil and other fillers such as zinc oxide that was created by Charles Goodyear during his development of the latex vulcanization process. It was called ebonite because they wanted to use it as a replacement for ebony wood.

Gutta-percha, another source of latex, was also used to make handgun grips. So, people who call the material that 19th Century grips are made of gutta-percha aren't wrong. Calling them Bakelite is wrong because it wasn't developed until the 20th Century.

I see Gary was posting as I was writing.
 
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opoefc said:
Mike, In your research on the subject did you ever come across any mention of a patent on the process, or formula, used to make these cases? I would think that whoever came up with the process might have had the smarts to patent his ( or her) idea, since it was used widely to fulfill the markets demand for the product. Ed ( James, I would be happy to donate a case for forensic analysis, however I'm fresh out of them, having used my last one to case an old Iver Johnson I sold to a pigeon for big bucks ! I will accept donations, however.)
Click to expand...

If I did, Ed, it would have been in Krainik's book. I seem to recall he makes mention of the ingredients, but I don't know if there are any specific recipes in there. I'll check this weekend.

In terms of gun grips: I took a look at a Sharps Pepperbox, and the grips on it strike me as different than some of the late 19th century plastic grips that my S&W's came with. I can't quite say how they look different (I'll need to look at them side-by-side a little more closely this weekend), but I'm wondering if the Sharps grips are gutta-percha, or they're just some other semi-synthetic thermoplastic recipe?

Either way, this is making me realize that I need to be a bit more careful about how I toss the term "gutta percha" around. It sounds like "thermoplastic" is a better catch-all term.

Mike
 
For those that enjoy the behind the story stories, I read that the molding plates that were used for the original S&W cases were engraved by a Frederick B. Smith and a Hermann Hartman. They received $3,000 for their work which in today's dollars would be around $43,937. A tidy sum in either time period.

Ed, as soon as the weather around here breaks a little I plan to do some follow up research in the Florence MA area to see if there are any records that might explain the process used by Littlefield, Parsons Co. I found a reference to some "Parson's papers" at an area museum and they may reveal more details.
 
JSR III said:
Ed, as soon as the weather around here breaks a little I plan to do some follow up research in the Florence MA area to see if there are any records that might explain the process used by Littlefield, Parsons Co. I found a reference to some "Parson's papers" at an area museum and they may reveal more details.
Click to expand...

The "Parsons" you're looking for is Isaac Parsons (8 Feb 1830 - 31 Mar 1910). My research suggests that he was a lifelong resident of Northampton, Massachusetts.

Mike
 
After some more research, I found that Goodyear patented his vulcanization process using Brazilian latex 8 weeks after Hancock in England patented it using Indian Rubber (gutta percha). So, these very similar thermoplastics were virtually discovered at the same time. My suggestion is that the hard rubber stocks be called ebonite since that is what Charles Goodyear called his thermoplastic.
 
Ebonite is a thermoset plastic, since it cannot be re-melted like shellac based plastics. Rubber with lots of sulfur, like Ebonite, is often considered to be an elastomeric rubber, but actually belongs to the thermoset family.
 
I am trying to understand a timeline between when the Stand of Flags case and the Pistol case was used. Smith & Wesson purchased these cases from Littlefield & Parsons Co beginning in August of 1858. My understanding is the Flag case is earlier than the Pistol case. But how much earlier was the Flags case available prior to the Pistol case? A month, a year, etc? Smith & Wesson stopped purchasing these cases by 1862, so they weren’t available long. And, I have seen reference to a rare brown case with regards to the Flags variation. Does it also exist in the Pistol variation? And was it earlier, intentional, a quality control issue, or a result of fading from black over the decades?
 
Just a side note. There is strong evidence that these cases were not Gutta Percha and actually made from a substance called "mud". Somewhere I have an article by an authority on this subject and will try to dig it up.

PS: This is from a 2021 thread and posted by first model:

"There were two different thermoplastic cases that were made by Littlefield, Parsons & Co. for Smith & Wesson. Below is a photo of the other box, which obviously has different decorative elements from the molds that Don has. The boxes were otherwise identical.

The thermoplastic material used to make these boxes would have been poured into the molds in a liquid state.

As an aside: collectors often call these "gutta percha" cases, but this isn't really correct. Gutta percha is a natural latex rubber substance which looks very similar to the thermoplastic uses in these cases—but it's not the same. The material used for these cases was a shellac-based substance that was mixed with a very fine sawdust.

Mike"

The name Vern Eklund is also mentioned in the thread and IIRC he was the one that did the study o these cases and the actual product used......

Perhaps a forum search using his name will bring up his information on the subject.
 
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mrcvs wrote: "And, I have seen reference to a rare brown case with regards to the Flags variation. Does it also exist in the Pistol variation?" See post #9 for an example of the brown pistol case.
 
mmaher94087 said:
mrcvs wrote: "And, I have seen reference to a rare brown case with regards to the Flags variation. Does it also exist in the Pistol variation?" See post #9 for an example of the brown pistol case.
Click to expand...

Post #9 shows a brown Pistol variation . Maybe the brown variation was only found on the Pistol cases, or was it found on the Flags variation as well? Intentional, or accidental?
 
I have nothing to add here except I've never run into the OP/twaits before and his avatar is a mug shot of Lucky Luciano and I'm ROTFLMAO!!!! :D

Well done!!!
 
Hi There,


I wish I could remember where I read an article on the company
that made those cases. They made cases commercially and sold
cases to other firearm manufacturers (Bacons and Wheelock
pocket pistols have been found cased with the flag box). Their
cases were used for holding games and playing cards too.

The article went on to show the original molds which were still in
existence at that time. I'm not sure if they used injection molding
but the boxes were heated with high pressure steam. I don't
remember whether they used ejector pins to force the box from
the mold or not.


Cheers!
Webb
 
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Brown/Black

I suspect the Browning of the case was caused by sun exposure over a long period of time. This exact same condition is seen on many HR antique firearms from many manufacturers at that time.
I’ve even seen where one grip( usually the right side) is brown and the left side is black. Supports that the owner was right handed and the right side of the pistol was exposed to the sun when carried.

These cases could have sat on top of a desk, night stand, mantel, etc and were exposed to morning or evening sun gradually turning Brown over time. The browning of grips also goes all the way through the material. I have a few.

Murph
 
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BMur said:
I suspect the Browning of the case was caused by sun exposure over a long period of time. This exact same condition is seen on many HR antique firearms from many manufacturers at that time.
I’ve even seen where one grip( usually the right side) is brown and the left side is black. Supports that the owner was right handed and the right side of the pistol was exposed to the sun when carried.

These cases could have sat on top of a desk, night stand, mantel, etc and were exposed to morning or evening sun gradually turning Brown over time. The browning of grips also goes all the way through the material. I have a few.

Murph
Click to expand...

That’s exactly why I asked this. Is the browning truly an original brown colour, or is it the same brown experienced by some hard rubber and/or gutta percha stocks? My guess it’s the latter, developing over time, but some literature out there seems to suggest it’s uncommon but intentional.
 
Browning

There is so much evidence that supports browning is caused by sun exposure that I personally think you would need to find a period advertisement that offers BROWN as an option color.
Brown grips look really nice but they were not originally brown. They were black. You could say they were originally brown and you’d likely get a following of believers.

Murph
 
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Referring to post #9 photos, the cases were made in brown. Sunlight would not affect the insides or bottom of these cases as shown.
 
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