THE EMPTY CHAMBER

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All traditional Colt SAA & clones such as Uberti with no transfer bar or other similar devices require carry on an empty chamber unless one is keen on accidental discharges. Modern Rugers don't count nor do many of the Ubertis however, they can be had w hammer mounted FP & traditional Colt design, such as my Stoeger import Uberti, these are not safe w 6 for typical or prolonged carry.
 
Old habits die hard. I still carry my six shot S&W revolvers with
the hammer resting over an empty chamber.

True or not, I have read somewhere that Wyatt Earp was playing
poker in the back room of a hotel. He was leaning back tilting
the chair back also, and his six shooter fell out of the holster
and fired a shot. So, it has been said that is what started the
practice of carrying with the hammer resting over an empty
chamber.

I have also read that cowboys in the old west would roll up a
ten dollar bill and stuff it into the empty chamber to be used
for "burying money".

Just wondering if anyone else still clings to this old habit?

The Earp legend has been busted; in the sense that the entire book (Wyatt Earp Frontier Marshall, 1931) was busted as a fake: the author admitted that Earp was not ever interviewed for it (Earp died in January of '29). We covered this one pretty thoroughly on another forum about Colts.

Also busted there: that everyone knew better than to carry the old SAA with a round under the hammer. The Army manual for the '73 Colt required that it be carried with six and the hammer lowered onto the safety notch.

Also busted: the Threepersons myths. The storyline that's been quoted from Lobo is nearly all myth spread first by Askins and then by Skeeter; even Boothroyd tried to con Fleming with it! There are elements of truth to the legend but the details falls short very quickly. Not least that the Cherokee using the name Tom Threepersons and died '69 was not Tom Threepersons at all! Who instead was a Blood Indian who was born the 'same' year (not a coincidence) and died in '49.

Remember this: yes, Threepersons' holster was used as the prototype for Sam Myres' 614 holster (it's on my wall here); and Myres called the 614 a Threepersons holster; and the FBI popularized the 614; and Heiser copied it with its 457 that also became the FBI's holster; and Bianchi took the market from Heiser including with its copy of the Threepersons; and by the '70s we all began to switch away from the Threepersons-style towards the Gaylord school without welts.

It is true that holsters of the turn of the last century enveloped all of the revolver. It is not true that they were any slower than a Threepersons as long as what was called the 'quick draw belt loop' (all the fingers of the drawing hand were cleared of leather there) was incorporated. The progenitor for the Threepersons was the Brill, of which the only difference was that the Brill had a fender behind the holster pocket, and that fender cooperated with a functional cuff to form a close-fitting belt tunnel. The Brill was created for the Texas Rangers to precisely meet the requirements of the FBI that did not yet exist: high riding concealment without a safety strap. That requirement specified that the entire handle of the revolver be above the belt; that the belt be a narrow trousers belt and not a gunbelt; that at least one welt be used inside to retain the revolver; that there be no safety strap; that the rear sight be pitched ahead of the front sight (positive caster).
 
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I'm an old guy. I disagree with you 100%. And exposed trigger guards are not as old as covered trigger guards. All the classic Old West holsters that I am aware of covered the trigger guards until Tom Threepersons redesigned the holster and that was in the 20th century. So it's not the "oldest school"! :)

Certainly covered guards are amongst the oldest -- think of the Civil War flap holsters :-). After that it becomes troublesome because are we speaking of covered guards or covered triggers; because the hoop being covered and the trigger being exposed was the next most common way (see Packing Iron).

During extensive (years) research for Holstory we did determine that there were predecessors to what we call the Threepersons style today. Most prominent amongst them, and an entire chapter in Holstory devoted to it, was the Brill.

ricky brill (1).jpg An 'early' by Brill's employee Kluge

ricky brill (9).jpg A 'late' by Brill's successor Rabensburg

It was the first of the 20th century gunfighter holsters and perhaps Tom's own holster was inspired by it; because the Brill design was created in 1907 and Brill began making it in 1912; and Tom's holster appears to have been made for him in 1919 for him to begin his first LEO job in early 1920 (prior he was a blacksmith; and prior an Army blacksmith; and prior a rodeo performer; and prior -- no one will ever know); and Myres didn't begin making his version until 1931.

Tom's has the massive welts used in the Brill, too.

The Brill style (it was made by dozens of Texas saddlers operating in a 200 mile radius circle around Austin, plus Myres in El Paso [which he also called a Threepersons] has every requirement of the Threepersons and with the inclusion of the fender and functional cuff. It was adapted from the King Ranch holster for the 3" wide scout belts and carrying much lower.

In support of Phil's 'old school', I have a holster range that I call 'Old School' that is post-1960s; it's just a phrase for the kids nowadays, like a dial phone being old school yet without claiming that the telegraph isn't 'older school' :-).
 
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Not to go off-topic, but all this talk of "burial money" raises a question.

Were folks back in the 1800s just more honorable/trustworthy than they are today? It just seems inconceivable to me that wolks would leave money for their own burial on their person expecting those who found them to actually use said money for its intended purpose without any guarantee that it wouldn't be looted and their body left there to rot, or otherwise that the person wouldn't simply dig a shallow grave, roll the body into it, push the dirt back over the body, then walk off with the money, telling themselves that what they did was adequate to ease their guilty conscience.
I mean, I know that folks say that folks were generally more honorable in the past couple centuries at least, but even then, it's not likely thievery was unheard of, so it strikes me as odd that folks would leave money in the hands of strangers to handle their funeral on good faith alone.

Pretty sure bad human behaviors (greed, lust, etc.) haven’t changed in the past few thousand years or more. When people say 1800’s folks were more honorable, I’m thinking it’s just nostalgic thinking. Those 1800’s lawmen weren’t carrying six shooters just for show, right?
 
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Had an old cowboy friend (he was in his 70s when I knew him in the early 1980s) who carried an old 5-screw M&P tucked in the waist and of his Levis under his shirt when he went to town. He always carried it with an empty chamber under the hammer, probably out of habit from carrying single action Colts. He had a friend in the Border Patrol that supplied him with Patrol issued .38 wadcutters, which is what he carried in his sixgun. I still have a couple of boxes of that ammo that he gave me that have the BP officer's name penciled on them.
 
Well it isnt 1873 anymore. Today, totally safe to carry a da revo hammer down on a live rd. You are already handicapped with a revo in a fight. Further reducing your ammo supply just makes no sense. Same for semi btw, empty chamber carry is still done far too much. Unlike the revo though, you cant fight form the draw with an empty chamber without chambering a rd. 21st century guys/hals, come on in.
 
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Hi Phil:

Sorry, I just remembered that I do have a SA revolver in my collection: a NAA mini-revolver chambered in .22 Magnum. I bought it for my daughter, but she prefers the simplicity of a Model 642 (smart kid). On the few occasions that I carry it, I carry it fully loaded (5 shots). NAA manufactures the cylinder with recesses between the charge holes, and I rest the hammer into one of the recesses. BTW, even though I cannot imagine any scenario where I would ever need a reload for the little piece, I still carry at least one full reload for it - mainly because I'm old school where the thinking is a gun without bullets isn't much of a gun.

Regards,

Dave
 
Phil,
I carry this'n with five........Simply because I want to.

S-W-45-Long-Colt-007.jpg


And these too...

2nd-gen-colt.jpg


44-Special-Barrel-5-5-in-004.jpg


Jest sitting on the veranda, in the cool of the evening, with the smell of fresh cut hay fills the air.

Five rounds are enough, as the shadows grow long and the whippoorwill sings his lonesome song.

If'n I was expecting trouble, I'd jest have a rifle restin' nearby ;) :D

Su Amigo,
Dave

What model is that top one?
 
As I said previously the habit would not be hard to handle if I wanted to break it. Apparently I don't.


Methinks the OP was a bit cheeky, sort of like me posting: "Gee, I got $265 back on my income tax. I sure wish the .gov would raise my taxes so it would even out. What say you all?" Joe
 
Methinks the OP was a bit cheeky, sort of like me posting: "Gee, I got $265 back on my income tax. I sure wish the .gov would raise my taxes so it would even out. What say you all?" Joe

If you're going to look at it that way then why stop there?

This whole thread was sort of like posting, "I intentionally uphold an antiquated practice which is 100% detrimental with modern firearms, but refuse to change because I don't want to, wanna fight about it?" ;)
 
Well, cool, we'll get along just fine. I don't understand your comment except I guess you carry your revolver in some kind of a Tom Threepersons' holster design. I don't know what "Holstory" says about him but everyone else in America thinks he designed/redesigned the Western-style holster. I have some copyrighted material below that backs me up on that statement.

With apologies to the moderators for the length of the quoted material but it makes no sense if I cut it any shorter.



(C) Lobogunleathers 2019



(c) 2000-2019 The Last Best West

Classic Tom Threepersons holsters



(c) 2019 Wikipedia

The Wikipedia entry is entirely wrong and I've not (and may never) bothered to correct it. The true story in short (the Holstory telling is better because it has footnotes so that one can return to the source material for verification):

"Tom Three Persons was a Blood Indian born 1889 in Alberta Canada while it was still a Territory. He took his name from his stepfather, a horse rancher; while his birth father was named Fred Pace. In 1912 Tom won the bronc busting category in Calgary Canada and became famous as the first Indian to win at rodeo. He did not ever travel further south into the USA than the northernmost towns of MT.

"In 1916 another man, stating he was Cherokee Indian, entered a rodeo in Arizona claiming to be that winner at Calgary. Certainly their physical attributes matched: same height, same weight, same birth year, same skin color, same hair color, same eye color. These were the things that were tracked in that era for military service including the Blood Indian's draft registration in MT and 'our' Tom's joining the Army there in Arizona in 1916. The latter appears to have been recruited by then-Lt. Patton to be a scout against Pancho Villa.

"In 1920 Tom Threepersons (a single word for the first time in his record) became first a blacksmith and then an El Paso policeman. The legends about him being the Indian who won at Calgary began and the full legend that included Alberta and a man named White who he avenged, appeared in 1923 right after Tom had served with the ATF alongside a now-famed agent named White: J.C. 'Doc' White.

"It was not coincidence that Eugene Cunningham appeared in El Paso as a writer for El Paso Times in 1920 that Tom's legends began to appear in EPT at that very moment. Gene had a very florid style that stands in stark contrast to the matter-of-fact reporting of Tom's LEO work then.

"It is also no coincidence that Tom's new wife, Lorene, was also an EPT contributor and it appears that she and Gene matched up the Blood Indian's backstory to suit the 'new' Tom Threepersons; and all three benefited from the legends (as did a Oren Arnold, who arrived late) because it paid better than LEO work.

"At the end of 1927 Tom was no longer an LEO, and by the beginning of 1928 the original Tom Three Persons had learned of Tom's subterfuge from an article by Cunningham -- in a London magazine, of all places, a copy of which was taken to Three Persons because he was a British citizen in Canada. He thought he was being defamed because the article was about a two-gun mankiller, which he was not.

"The Cherokee Tom's holster (his tribe cannot be proved or disproved; only Lorene's Cherokee blood can be proved, his first wife Susie was not Indian, and his third wife Rose was not Cherokee) appears to have been made in Douglas by a chap who set up there in 1919 after moving around the West as a saddler. It has (I own it) two massive welts inside it, carries low and quite vertically. It appears that still needing money, the Threepersons took the design to Myres in 1929, which is when Tom sold his Triple Lock and his Winchester for $50; not too bad at a time when these were less than $20 each, new.

"The result was a range of five holster designs for Myres' 1931 catalog -- prior to that Sam was not a holster maker of any note -- called 'Tom Threepersons Style Holsters'; his 614 model later made famous by Jelly Bryce and Jerry Campbell of the FBI was based on Tom's own holsters, another model was based on Brill's SAA holster, another on Brill's 1911 model; and two spring shoulder holsters.

"In the 1950s Charlie Askins picked up the old legends that Tom and his wife had appropriated from the Canadian chap (died 1949 after being trampled in a stampede) and they've been repeated verbatim ever since. In 2016 all of Tom's guns resurfaced from their private collections; and so did his holster. The holster held by The Autry was not Tom's, but rather Lone Wolf Gonzaullas' Myres.

"Does it matter? Did Tom really design the Threepersons holster? Yes, with the caveat that he was a lawman not a leatherworker; and his proven holster choice was the basis of the Threepersons styles made by Myres."
 
If you're going to look at it that way then why stop there?

This whole thread was sort of like posting, "I intentionally uphold an antiquated practice which is 100% detrimental with modern firearms, but refuse to change because I don't want to, wanna fight about it?" ;)

More bashing? Qualifies you both for those I describe in my
post #21. Cheeky? That comment is a little cheezy. It's like
you took a course in how to be a wit but only completed half
of the course. Put your pitiful little egos to bed now, unless
you want to fight some more?
 
The Wikipedia entry is entirely wrong and I've not (and may never) bothered to correct it. The true story in short (the Holstory telling is better because it has footnotes so that one can return to the source material for verification):

"Tom Three Persons was a Blood Indian born 1889 in Alberta Canada while it was still a Territory. He took his name from his stepfather, a horse rancher; while his birth father was named Fred Pace. In 1912 Tom won the bronc busting category in Calgary Canada and became famous as the first Indian to win at rodeo. He did not ever travel further south into the USA than the northernmost towns of MT.

"In 1916 another man, stating he was Cherokee Indian, entered a rodeo in Arizona claiming to be that winner at Calgary. Certainly their physical attributes matched: same height, same weight, same birth year, same skin color, same hair color, same eye color. These were the things that were tracked in that era for military service including the Blood Indian's draft registration in MT and 'our' Tom's joining the Army there in Arizona in 1916. The latter appears to have been recruited by then-Lt. Patton to be a scout against Pancho Villa.

"In 1920 Tom Threepersons (a single word for the first time in his record) became first a blacksmith and then an El Paso policeman. The legends about him being the Indian who won at Calgary began and the full legend that included Alberta and a man named White who he avenged, appeared in 1923 right after Tom had served with the ATF alongside a now-famed agent named White: J.C. 'Doc' White.

"It was not coincidence that Eugene Cunningham appeared in El Paso as a writer for El Paso Times in 1920 that Tom's legends began to appear in EPT at that very moment. Gene had a very florid style that stands in stark contrast to the matter-of-fact reporting of Tom's LEO work then.

"It is also no coincidence that Tom's new wife, Lorene, was also an EPT contributor and it appears that she and Gene matched up the Blood Indian's backstory to suit the 'new' Tom Threepersons; and all three benefited from the legends (as did a Oren Arnold, who arrived late) because it paid better than LEO work.

"At the end of 1927 Tom was no longer an LEO, and by the beginning of 1928 the original Tom Three Persons had learned of Tom's subterfuge from an article by Cunningham -- in a London magazine, of all places, a copy of which was taken to Three Persons because he was a British citizen in Canada. He thought he was being defamed because the article was about a two-gun mankiller, which he was not.

"The Cherokee Tom's holster (his tribe cannot be proved or disproved; only Lorene's Cherokee blood can be proved, his first wife Susie was not Indian, and his third wife Rose was not Cherokee) appears to have been made in Douglas by a chap who set up there in 1919 after moving around the West as a saddler. It has (I own it) two massive welts inside it, carries low and quite vertically. It appears that still needing money, the Threepersons took the design to Myres in 1929, which is when Tom sold his Triple Lock and his Winchester for $50; not too bad at a time when these were less than $20 each, new.

"The result was a range of five holster designs for Myres' 1931 catalog -- prior to that Sam was not a holster maker of any note -- called 'Tom Threepersons Style Holsters'; his 614 model later made famous by Jelly Bryce and Jerry Campbell of the FBI was based on Tom's own holsters, another model was based on Brill's SAA holster, another on Brill's 1911 model; and two spring shoulder holsters.

"In the 1950s Charlie Askins picked up the old legends that Tom and his wife had appropriated from the Canadian chap (died 1949 after being trampled in a stampede) and they've been repeated verbatim ever since. In 2016 all of Tom's guns resurfaced from their private collections; and so did his holster. The holster held by The Autry was not Tom's, but rather Lone Wolf Gonzaullas' Myres.

"Does it matter? Did Tom really design the Threepersons holster? Yes, with the caveat that he was a lawman not a leatherworker; and his proven holster choice was the basis of the Threepersons styles made by Myres."

So, I have a holster, kinda like Tom's original, that I really like.
So I take it to a maker, like S. D. Myres for example, and ask
him to make me a holster. Does that make me the designer?
I think not.
 
I'm officially an old guy (84). Started carrying concealed in the 1950s.
Sixty something years ago. At that time it was not unusual at all to
carry 5 rounds in a six shooter.

The open trigger guard was not unusual either. Anyone who follows
the Gun Leather forum knows I like the open trigger guard, and I
have some classics.

I am well aware of all of the "improvements" that have come about
over the past sixty or so years. I just prefer the old ways, and I
believe I have that right.

Last time I read the rules one of them said "Civil Discourse and
Courteous Behavior shall be the Norm." Some on here must
think that is just a suggestion.

As I have said, I respect your right to disagree with me 100%, however
I believe you can do so without the insults aka bashing.

I bought my truck new in 1982. 37 years ago. I still have the
same old gal I married over 60 years ago. Does that make me wrong
because there are newer models now?

So, I apologize to any and all who are offended by my defending myself
against those bashers. As I said previously, it doesn't bother me. They
are just feeding their pitiful little egos.
 
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I have several Colt single-action revolvers dating from the 1880's to 1970's. Simple as simple can be: hammer to half-cock, open the loading gate, load one, skip one, load four, close the gate, hammer to full-cock, then release the hammer over the empty chamber.

Oddly, the original Colt revolvers (percussion models) featured spaces between the chambers that allowed the hammer to be lowered onto a recessed pin in between two chambers/percussion nipples. This allowed for carrying a fully loaded revolver safely. Why this was not incorporated into the SAA design I haven't figured out, but that's just the way is has been for 136 years or so.
 
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