44 mag solid copper bullets for hunting

I've noticed in some previous posts that alot of you are using cast bullets for hunting. Last week at our board meeting (Inland Northwest Wildlife Council), we had a seminar on the effects of lead used in hunting. We all know about it when it comes to waterfowl but they showed us the problems lead has regarding big game bullets. That included copper jacketed ammo. Their X-Ray photos showed lead fragments scattered throughout several different animals. They say it's a growing concern with wildlife agencies here in the Pacific Northwest. I'm not looking to be political, but to inquire if anyone uses the solid copper bullets in their hunting handloads. We have a few board members who have been reloading them for a few years with excellent results. They were talking rifle loads, and said they wouldn't to back to conventional bullets. Has anyone used solid copper bullets for their hunting handloads?
PS: What grain and what style cast bullets do you use?

I have been using solid copper on deer and elk for 26-27 years in the rifles. I can not provide a report on deer from a hand gun that you desire, but have a nice load worked up for my 44 mag using the Barnes solid copper 200 grain bullets. For two years now, I just can not get a good shot on one of our whitetails. I do believe they will preform above and beyond what the jacketed lead core bullets on shots placed in the correct spot of the lung area. I do not expect to ever hunt with the lead again. I hope I can post a photo and report this fall.

I am familiar with the Barnes Bullets all copper hollow point handgun bullets, now also available in loaded ammo. I worked for Barnes for five years.

They are excellent, consistently expanding performers that retain their weight, penetrate straight and deep. They are long for their weight because copper is less dense than lead, so you need a 1/20 twist barrel. Copper is also more expensive than lead, but the increase in terminal performance justifies the cost. It is common to find that a lighter weight all-copper HP Barnes bullet will outperform a heavier lead jacketed bullet.

This link shows loading data for three different copper bullet weights.
https://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/44-Rem-Mag.pdf

The Barnes VOR-TX line of loaded ammo is very high quality. In .44 mag they offer their mid-weight 225 bullet @ 1275 FPS. with 762 ft lbs energy at the muzzle. As with all Barnes Bullets, expect 90%+ expansion (to .85”).
VOR-TX Hunting Handgun - Barnes Bullets

Barnes was making all copper hunting bullets long before the current concern over lead bullets reared its ugly head, but this reality has been going on since the first musket balls were fired at game. We live in a different time.

There are many excellent jacketed lead loads, especially in .44 REM Mag. But if you go the way cf our dear California brothers in arms, all copper bullets are a solid option.

LittleCooner said:

I have been using solid copper on deer and elk for 26-27 years in the rifles. I can not provide a report on deer from a hand gun that you desire, but have a nice load worked up for my 44 mag using the Barnes solid copper 200 grain bullets. For two years now, I just can not get a good shot on one of our whitetails. I do believe they will preform above and beyond what the jacketed lead core bullets on shots placed in the correct spot of the lung area. I do not expect to ever hunt with the lead again. I hope I can post a photo and report this fall.

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I'm shooting my 629 Classic DX with 6.5" barrel, topped with a Vortex Venom. The shots from my tree stand will all be under 65 yards. What powder are you using?

Dragonwing said:

I'm shooting my 629 Classic DX with 6.5" barrel, topped with a Vortex Venom. The shots from my tree stand will all be under 65 yards. What powder are you using?

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Perfect set up. You’ll do fine.

Dragonwing said:

I'm shooting my 629 Classic DX What powder are you using?

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I just posted my load in the other thread. I am using 23.5 grains of Vihtavouri H 110 in Starline brass with the 200 grain TAC-XP bullets. In my 29-2 with 6.5 inch barrel, they are running 1400, actual average of five was 1403 fps.

CB3 said:

It is common to find that a lighter weight all-copper HP Barnes bullet will outperform a heavier lead jacketed bullet.

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25+ years and about 50-60 Whitetail deer have proved to me that this is a very true statement. And 30-35 of those deer never moved from their tracks. They are a definite "next level up" from the jacketed lead bullets we have used for decades. Barnes had a "better mousetrap"

I'm

LittleCooner said:

I just posted my load in the other thread. I am using 23.5 grains of Vihtavouri H 110 in Starline brass with the 200 grain TAC-XP bullets. In my 29-2 with 6.5 inch barrel, they are running 1400, actual average of five was 1403 fps.

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Now if I could just find some of that powder and the bullets I'd be a happy man. The only powders I have, starting with the most are:
11.5 lbs of W231
4 lbs Unique
4lbs CFE
3.75 lbs WSF
I'll have to see if I have anything close, and just keep looking. Thanks.

I know you specified hand loads, but I can say that I use the factory Barnes solid copper in 30-06 and 500 Magnum with great expansion and weight retention. I'm sure if you could find the Barnes solid copper projectiles and loaded your own they would have similar results to the factory loads.

Not any with a handgun but I have killed a very large Shiras moose here in Idaho using a 7mm Rem Mag and a 139gr Hornady GMX all copper bullet. Range was about 80 yards and the bullet went through the lungs and stopped in the opposite shoulder. I thought it worked perfectly.

nate-dogg said:

I know you specified hand loads, but I can say that I use the factory Barnes solid copper in 30-06 and 500 Magnum with great expansion and weight retention. I'm sure if you could find the Barnes solid copper projectiles and loaded your own they would have similar results to the factory loads.

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Be careful comparing rifle bullets to handgun bullets though.

Rifles kill with velocity and shock, and something like the 30-06 has plenty of velocity to get reliable expansion.

For handguns, you should figure on never having expansion. They are too low in velocity to count on it, and that's why people choose solids for handgun hunting. A good cast bullet with sharp shoulder maximizes frontal area (Elmer Keith school of thought), and THAT's what handguns kill with. Punching a 44 or 45 caliber hole clean through.

I'm sure a copper solid would work fine but you're going to be encroaching into the boiler room more than with a lead slug, therefore you'd need to adjust your powder charge and likely get lower velocity per the same pressure.

I think after hundreds and hundreds of years of people shooting animals with all-lead projectiles, eating them, and living to tell their story, you're probably going to be fine.

smithra_66 said:

Be careful comparing rifle bullets to handgun bullets though.

Rifles kill with velocity and shock, and something like the 30-06 has plenty of velocity to get reliable expansion.

For handguns, you should figure on never having expansion. They are too low in velocity to count on it, and that's why people choose solids for handgun hunting. A good cast bullet with sharp shoulder maximizes frontal area (Elmer Keith school of thought), and THAT's what handguns kill with. Punching a 44 or 45 caliber hole clean through.

I think after hundreds and hundreds of years of people shooting animals with all-lead projectiles, eating them, and living to tell their story, you're probably going to be fine.

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Velocity is not what kills; it is the enhanced terminal performance of the bullet. If a modern bullet is designed to expand reliably at a range from 1,000 FPS to 1,500 FPS, it will expand within that envelope, whether from a handgun or rifle. The broad statement that handgun bullets do not expand (because of their lower velocity) is absolutely incorrect. Most hunting rifle bullets are expanding bullets to increase wounding potential. Their operating FPS envelope is just higher. Expanding bullets are known to be favored over non-expanding bullets except in a few defined instances where even deeper penetration is more important. No deer ever needed that treatment.

The greater wounding effect of expanding bullets, along with sufficient penetration, is undeniable. Properly designed bullets do their job. A 200, 220 or 300 grain Barnes .44 mag expands as designed consistently and is as good, or better, than many other handgun bullets and even some poorly designed rifle bullets, especially if they non-expanding. Punching a smaller .44 diameter hole clean through a game animal does not have greater wounding (killing) potential than a fully expanded, high rpm propeller-like 80 caliber bullet punching through an animal to just under the hide on the far side.

As to lead consumption, the bigger argument in California was that raptors eat gut piles containing lead, and the raptors die of lead poisoning. This is true to some extent. However, many other factors contribute to declines in animal populations, not just lead exposure.

CB3 said:

Velocity is not what kills; it is the enhanced terminal performance of the bullet. If a modern bullet is designed to expand reliably at a range from 1,000 FPS to 1,500 FPS, it will expand within that envelope, whether from a handgun or rifle. The broad statement that handgun bullets do not expand (because of their lower velocity) is absolutely incorrect. Most hunting rifle bullets are expanding bullets to increase wounding potential. Their operating FPS envelope is just higher. Expanding bullets are known to be favored over non-expanding bullets except in a few defined instances where even deeper penetration is more important. No deer ever needed that treatment.

The greater wounding effect of expanding bullets, along with sufficient penetration, is undeniable. Properly designed bullets do their job. A 200, 220 or 300 grain Barnes .44 mag expands as designed consistently and is as good, or better, than many other handgun bullets and even some poorly designed rifle bullets, especially if they non-expanding. Punching a smaller .44 diameter hole clean through a game animal does not have greater wounding (killing) potential than a fully expanded, high rpm propeller-like 80 caliber bullet punching through an animal to just under the hide on the far side.

As to lead consumption, the bigger argument in California was that raptors eat gut piles containing lead, and the raptors die of lead poisoning. This is true to some extent. However, many other factors contribute to declines in animal populations, not just lead exposure.

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I guess you have not read Elmer Keith or Ross Seyfried over the past 50 years.

Cast or other solid bullets are the way to go in handgun hunting for the same reason they are the choice against large African game in rifles.

You want to punch a hole in your target and handguns don't have the shock factor that rifles do and can depend on for hunting big game.

I had a Hornady XTP blow up on the shoulder of a whitetail many years ago. Hit it so hard that it flipped the deer over but it got up and ran away. I've since switch to solids and never had that problem again.

Even a 44 mag just doesn't have the shock factor to rely on hollow point bullets....and in the case of the XTP, it was designed too light because it needs to expand on the meager velocities that the 44 mag can produce! So it's actually the opposite of what you said...

Handguns kill with frontal area. Rifles kill with velocity.

See: 223 Rem vs. 45 ACP in a self defense situation. The 223 has the same diameter as a 22 LR....but it's WAYYYY faster. It causes WAAAYYYY more destruction. Even more than the big 45, which is also no slouch in self defense situations. The 45 is slower than the 22 LR but it causes WAAAAYYY more destruction. It's because it's way bigger diameter.

Velocity kills and frontal area kills. Rifles have LOTS of velocity and relatively little frontal area. Handguns have LOTS of frontal area and relatively little velocity. Use the bullet that accentuates either situation.

I used the Barnes all copper bullet handloaded in 350 Remington Magnum on a couple deer in 1990. They worked well, but certainly no better than more traditionally constructed bullets.

The biggest drawback was the reduction in case capacity resulting from the homogeneous Barnes bullet necessitating a lot of fiddling to develop a load that performed well with the over long, relatively light bullets.

I’m much happier with more traditionally constructed bullets.

I hunt with a .475 Linebaugh using a cast 430 gr long flat nose by LBT. I cast them out of wheelweights and linotype and quench them. I have been eating game shot with lead since I was old enough to hunt. Still cooking @ 75.

Great conversations here. This is why these forums are so important and informational. You get information from years of personal experience and different results and points of view. It gives you choices to try and see what might work one person, doesn't work for another. It's important to gather as much information you can and see what might work best for you and your personal situation. I appreciate all of you sharing your many years of experience. Thank you.

This to explain the counter point! I do not use any solid copper bullets! When Barns came out with the Varmint Grenade, a solid copper varmint hunting bullet for rifles. I bought 6mm and the two weights of 22 caliber bullets. They weigh less per volume (or length) than lead core bullets, so they are suppose to stabilize in the standard rifling for cartridges. I could not find an accurate load in 223, 22-250 or 22BR with the 36 grain or for the 22 Hornet with the 30 grain bullet. I called Barns and talked to the people in their ballistics department. They gave me loads that hadn't been published at that time and assured me they were astoundingly accurate loads!, I ask for the particulars on the test rifles or test barrels they used, you know, common info like brand and model and rate of twist! Not one cartridge had any data ascribed to it! Every one was a dismal failure!!! So I called two of my rifles manufactures, Cooper and Savage to see if they had any suggestions. With Cooper I had my rifles caliber, model, and serial number handy, but when they found out I was using solid copper bullets, they said they had not been able to get satisfactory accuracy from any brand, weight, or caliber! When I called Savage, they were not as detailed but basically said the same thing!

The purpose of a hunting/varmint bullet is to kill, and to kill humanely! To do that they MUST hit where aimed consistently! With the lead core poly tipped bullets I use for varmint hunting, I get .25 to .5 MOA groups out to 300 yards of the larger centerfires and .25 MOA out to 150 yards on the Hornet. The best I could find from my rifles was 3 MOA! That is 6 to 12 times larger groups in the same guns! This is all 10+ year old data, because I refuse to go in the field with something so prone to failure!

Please Note; I do not hunt in California or on Federal land, where they both require nontoxic projectiles.

Ivan

I can remember living in Spokane and they kept the California influence trapped west of the Cascades pass.

Ivan—
The Barnes Varmint grenade was never a solid copper bullet. It was sintered material encased in copper gilding. It required a faster twist for stabilization than similar weight bullets because it was longer. There are challenges to loading copper bullets, including case capacity. However, there is a significant amount of data available for such loads, and there has been for more than a decade. There are numerous factors that can adversely effect accuracy. My experience has been that it is usually not the bullet.

Barnes had a similar bullet for larger calibers called the MPG. I bought a Savage 110 .308 for an antelope hunt in 2011. While working for Barnes my buddies in the lab custom loaded an MPG that grouped under 3/8” for 10 rounds at 100 yards from my factory rifle.

Our customer service folks often received calls not for help but just to vent about how accurate various Barnes Bullets were. The engineers at Barnes knew (know) their ballistics. They have brought many significant new products to the market. It is possible you got some of the earliest product of that product line and it was not yet understood by those unfamiliar with it.

Having talked to literally thousands of people at SHOT Shows and other trade shows, I will acknowledge that a minute percentage of shooters are challenged to make Barnes bullets work for them. However, Barnes is a successful, often copied, growing business because its products are accurate, reliable and predictable. If everyone had your experiences, Barnes would not be in business today.

There are many good lead based bullets out there that are accurate, reasonable in cost, easy to load and work well. Barnes bullets are available as a choice in most instances, not intended as a competition to make other bullet designs obsolete.

Solid copper hollow point bullets, now copied regularly by competitors who had to wait for Barnes’ patent to expire, are known for excellent performance in the types of hunting to which the OP was referring.

LittleCooner said:

I just posted my load in the other thread. I am using 23.5 grains of Vihtavouri H 110 in Starline brass with the 200 grain TAC-XP bullets. In my 29-2 with 6.5 inch barrel, they are running 1400, actual average of five was 1403 fps.

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Would that be "N110"...?

Jus'askin'...?

Cheers!