Shill Bidding?

smithra_66 · Apr 15, 2021

tripledipper said:
GB is becoming less credible every day. They allow sellers to misrepresent the product they have listed and obviously do not care. Revolvers listed "possibly never shot" in boxes and paperwork from a different models, shooters represented as "rare" collectibles. The uninformed buyers just keep on outbidding each other with the sold price way beyond the worth of the firtearm.

Do you really think Gunbroker has an army of workers reviewing subjective terms in auctions?

It's up to you to review for yourself, ask questions, etc. If something doesn't look right, don't bid on it.

Old Arkansawyer · Apr 15, 2021

To answer the OP's question, yes, shill bidding goes on at many auctions,
on line and live. I've had shills bidding against me at farm, estate and
industrial auctions. A couple times I have run the price up acting eager
to buy the item and then left the shill holding to bag. One of them ask
me later if I wanted the item at my last bid, nooo, not interested.
I have never bought a firearm online and don't plan on doing so.

SuperMan · Apr 16, 2021

I have purchased well over 100 guns on the auction sites and have returned exactly one. As said, a new gun is one thing...but try and find a Model 58 locally and you may be waiting for the rest of your shooting life...

Was having breakfast this morning and looking over the auctions...1911 Commander...and I come on a NIB Colt Wiley Clapp Commander Bobtail...except there is no such thing... Pulled up the auction and sure enough...a brand new NR feedback Seller. Highlighted the auction header and did a Google search...and it brought me right to the real owner on the Houston Gun Sellers page... Reported that guy to GB also...

Bob

smithra_66 · Apr 16, 2021

SuperMan said:
I have purchased well over 100 guns on the auction sites and have returned exactly one. As said, a new gun is one thing...but try and find a Model 58 locally and you may be waiting for the rest of your shooting life...

Was having breakfast this morning and looking over the auctions...1911 Commander...and I come on a NIB Colt Wiley Clapp Commander Bobtail...except there is no such thing... Pulled up the auction and sure enough...a brand new NR feedback Seller. Highlighted the auction header and did a Google search...and it brought me right to the real owner on the Houston Gun Sellers page... Reported that guy to GB also...

Bob

I've had the same experience. The fact is, the VAST majority of gun people are good, honest folks. Yes, you'll get a joker once in while, but it's rare.

I've seen a few people kicked off of GB for having false auctions. If things seem too good to be true, they probably are. Review the item, review the pictures, review the feedback, look up the seller on other ratings engines.

All of these things can be done in a matter of minutes with today's technology.

Having these online auction sites is a blessing. Guns I would never have been able to purchase in the pre internet days are available at your fingertips today. All it takes is a modicum of common sense and a small amount of effort and you're 99+% likely to have a great experience.

HOUSTON RICK · Apr 16, 2021

There is dishonesty on the internet? People manipulate transactions to try to make more money? Say it ain't so! Bernie Madoff must be turning in his grave.

tomhenry · Apr 16, 2021

Earlier this week I put a minimum bid on some new in the package 30-30 brass. The minimum bid allowed was just a little higher than Midway sells for new brass. My bid was for several unopened packages of 50.

The buy-it-now price was waaaay more than that. The seller clearly determined that the biddinng would go much higher. It didn't.

With just two days remaining and no bids but my own, somebody hit the buy-it-now price.

I'm convinced it was the seller who wasn't going to let his merch go at a reasonable price.

It's taught me a lesson, though. If I ever start selling merch on Gunbroker, I'm going to include an unreasonably high buy-it-now price. And if the bidding doesn't satisfy me, I'll just do what the above mentioned seller did.

If it works for others, it should work for me.

Golddollar · Apr 16, 2021

A few years ago I came across a custom 1911 .45 on Gunbroker that was described as being worked up by an old time custom pistolsmith but lacked some of the usual obvious provenance. I'm happy to say that the seller answered every question I had and bent over backward to provide enough documentation to allow me to satisfy myself that the gun was authentic.

I bought the gun to keep for myself forever. But since we can't take it with us, I made sure to copy off all the discussions I had with the seller and put them in the dedicated envelope I created for this gun, so when my estate goes to sell it all of the provenance will be there to show to a potential buyer.

smithra_66 · Apr 16, 2021

tomhenry said:
Earlier this week I put a minimum bid on some new in the package 30-30 brass. The minimum bid allowed was just a little higher than Midway sells for new brass. My bid was for several unopened packages of 50.

The buy-it-now price was waaaay more than that. The seller clearly determined that the biddinng would go much higher. It didn't.

With just two days remaining and no bids but my own, somebody hit the buy-it-now price.

I'm convinced it was the seller who wasn't going to let his merch go at a reasonable price.

It's taught me a lesson, though. If I ever start selling merch on Gunbroker, I'm going to include an unreasonably high buy-it-now price. And if the bidding doesn't satisfy me, I'll just do what the above mentioned seller did.

If it works for others, it should work for me.

The best approach to get the most money is to have a penny start, no reserve auction. You'll create bidding activity which will naturally drive the price up to what the item is worth to the general public....many times it'll be worth more than a Buy it Now price that you can dream up.

Also, in today's market, I'll bet the person who bought it was legit. People are paying insane prices for brass today. If the seller bid on it, he still has to pay Gunbroker for the successful auction. It would be counter productive for him to do that too many times.

SuperMan · Apr 17, 2021

...have sold well over a 1000 items on GB and have never once used a penny start...I just don't have the nerve...

I start my auctions at the minimum I want for something and if no one wants it at that price then I either lower the price or just let it sit...

Muss Muggins · Apr 17, 2021

I look to GB for stuff I really want that I just can't find in the LGS or at a show. Nothing rare or exotic, but hard to find. As an example, I found both of my Ruger Gunsite Scout rifles, in 5.56 and .308, on GB. Not that hard to find, you say? Try finding a left hand version in flyover country.

In any event, I paid a fair price, the rifles were as described, and they were from sellers with thousands of sales. I looked at the feedback, I looked at the pictures, I found their online presences and studied them, and then I set the price I was willing to pay as my max bid. In my minor GB purchase history of less than ten firearms, I have yet to be disappointed, but I have been outbid on some guns by bidders who I believe represent the OP's topic. And in some cases, those guns are still around.

As with everything, do your due diligence, and don't take unnecessary risks with money you can't afford or don't want to lose . . .

CAJUNLAWYER · Apr 17, 2021

The Norseman said:
My number one Gun Buying Rule - #1: If I can not Handle and
thoroughly inspect a Firearm, I won't even consider buying it,
for this reason alone I will not buy from a Web Site.

There is no reason that I need a Firearm that bad, that I have
to Buy off the Internet!

If I can not look the Seller in the eye and shake hands I don't
want the Gun.

Ther biggest reason to buy guns off the internet is that there is absolutely no record of the transaction. You send the seller the money and he ships you the gun and there is no FFL involved or anything-you can get a ghost full auto assault weapon that nobody knows you have. At least that's what I've seen on MSNBC and CNN

Steve912 · Apr 17, 2021

CAJUNLAWYER said:
Ther biggest reason to buy guns off the internet is that there is absolutely no record of the transaction. You send the seller the money and he ships you the gun and there is no FFL involved or anything-you can get a ghost full auto assault weapon that nobody knows you have. At least that's what I've seen on MSNBC and CNN

It's same as buying at a gun show---no background check, no record of transaction...I heard that recently, must be TRUE!

Jack Flash · Apr 18, 2021

tomhenry said:
Earlier this week I put a minimum bid on some new in the package 30-30 brass. The minimum bid allowed was just a little higher than Midway sells for new brass. My bid was for several unopened packages of 50.

The buy-it-now price was waaaay more than that. The seller clearly determined that the biddinng would go much higher. It didn't.

With just two days remaining and no bids but my own, somebody hit the buy-it-now price.

I'm convinced it was the seller who wasn't going to let his merch go at a reasonable price.

It's taught me a lesson, though. If I ever start selling merch on Gunbroker, I'm going to include an unreasonably high buy-it-now price. And if the bidding doesn't satisfy me, I'll just do what the above mentioned seller did.

If it works for others, it should work for me.

Maybe I need to be educated, but doesn't GB expect to get their percentage / commission from a Buy It Now sale? Doesn't that make the approach you describe unprofitable?

As to the comment "I never buy any guns on-line":
Some of my nicest guns have come from this web site. Certainly it would have been unlikely and very time consuming to try to find them locally. On the other hand, I've also bought a couple that the seller "misrepresented" the gun's condition. (Really, outright lied in one case.) But I never sent one back figuring the cost of return shipping and all the hassle wasn't worth it. So on balance "I got no complaints."

Steve912 · Apr 18, 2021

Jack Flash said:
Maybe I need to be educated, but doesn't GB expect to get their percentage / commission from a Buy It Now sale? Doesn't that make the approach you describe unprofitable?

I'm not a GB seller, so this is purely speculative--perhaps
the commission payments are done on a monthly roll-up
basis, or within xyz days? Something that might let a
scam seller 'float' for a time, without paying commissions?

glowe · Apr 18, 2021

There is fraud EVERYWHERE!!! If you think all those cleaned up guns are just as they look and as they are described at gun shows, think again. I have seen more attempted fraud at gun shows than I have ever seen online. Sitting on a table with tags like rare, scarce, high condition, rare caliber, rare barrel length, and listed at way over current value. There are also shill buyers at gun shows and a friend of mine fell for this once, thinking he had bought a rare gun out from under a shill buyer by offering more money in front of the supposed buyer. Turned out to be a common model worth less than half of what he paid.

It is so easy to bash online auctions and GB, but I can only tell you that after buying dozens of guns online, I have NEVER been disappointed. Do your research, study the collector books, bid only on items with adequate number of photos and ask seller any and all questions before bidding or buying. In a way, I am happy to see how many members will never do business online because the competition is reduced that way.

I should be telling everyone I can to never buy anything online, but that would be totally inappropriate. Wait - wait - that approach may be what those posts above are aimed at!!!!!!!!

Chuck24 · Apr 18, 2021

I do like most people here, look for a lot of transactions, good feedback and ratings, but this brings to mind the question, how does an honest good guy get started? The best sellers all had to have a first transaction.

SuperMan · Apr 19, 2021

Between Thursday morning and Sunday afternoon I reported 10 scammers... Thursday noon time the four reported in the morning were removed... Nothing happened to the others till Sunday afternoon...then they started disappearing one at a time...now they are all gone...

SuperMan · Apr 19, 2021

Chuck24 said:
I do like most people here, look for a lot of transactions, good feedback and ratings, but this brings to mind the question, how does an honest good guy get started? The best sellers all had to have a first transaction.

...buy something...several things from established dealers. Once they report you made your obligations people will have a little more confidence in you as a seller...

And don't start off with guns...a set of grips, holster, reloading dies...some things under $100.00 before you try and move guns...

Bob

Drm50 · Apr 19, 2021

Shills, have ruined a lot of good auctions. Anytime money is involved you will have those running the game on you.

JH1951 · Apr 19, 2021

Chuck24 said:
I do like most people here, look for a lot of transactions, good feedback and ratings, but this brings to mind the question, how does an honest good guy get started? The best sellers all had to have a first transaction.

That is in fact a very good question. Several months ago I ran into this dilemma. My solution was to inquire about the item being sold and request pictures of the piece that otherwise, if the seller did not have it, may not be available. Several friends said 'you gotta start somewhere', and I came close to falling into the trap. A major red flag is that scammers want instant payment, and often by methods not stated in the listing.
Requesting pictures only solves one part of the puzzle. Another major piece is 'will the seller actually ship it?' I guess that is where faith and or trust comes in. I am very skeptical of new sellers with no feedback, and most often pass them by. I would suggest to a new seller that they sell several things of low value first to build some feedback which translates to a bit of assurance that they are not there for a quick scam.
Sadly the world is not improving in this area.

Shill Bidding?

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