M1 Carbines arriving

No M-2 .30 Carbines on Tarawa, find a copy of “ War Baby”, the bible on .30 Carbines.
Quote, page 241 of War Baby....” A production engineering meeting was held at Inland from October 25,to 28, 1944 in order to examine and test the first 25 of the 500 production T-4 carbines being made under the September, 1944 contract.” End quote.
That is correct, I'm sure. Clarence was not a 'gun guy,' and only hunted waterfowl with an old Remington humpback 12 gauge prior to the Navy.

He seldom talked about his service, and he only mentioned the carbine because I was about to buy one as a first deer rifle at a surplus/discount store in the '60s. Of course, he was not in favor of it. He then opened up about Tarawa, the Japanese, and the VA. He spoke of it only one time again to me, and then only because I asked.

As far as information changing over time, I know for a fact that happens. In August, '93 one of my troops (he's still living, so I won't mention his name) killed a felon in a semi-truck who did a PIT maneuver and pushed my officer sideways along I-10 for several hundred feet. While sideways across the front of the semi at 80 mph, he had the presence of mind to empty his issue AR-15's 30 round mag into the cab. One round penetrated the decendent's leg, blowing off his kneecap and entering his heart. I got there as my troop was trying to order the driver out of the truck; we finally ascertained he wouldn't be coming out without a body bag.

Fast forward to 2011 or so. I was sitting in an auditorium at ENMU when NMSP Lt. Frank Musitano (he had been a junior patrolman in '93) told a rather more exciting version of the story at what should have been a recruiting talk, adding that my troop had fired 30 rounds and "...any one of them would have been fatal." Well, Frank (he died of cancer a few years ago) had been at the scene, but late, and really only directed traffic around the mess. He didn't know I was in the audience.

Ask me if I'd rather believe my great-uncle or Frank. :)
 
Last edited:
If you want to be a collector of M1 Carbines, be aware that it will require considerable research and observation, otherwise it will be an expensive and consternating experience. Best to concentrate on one manufacturer at a time, like Inland. If you just want a good shooter, there are plenty at reasonable prices. We call them "Mixmasters".
 
If you want to be a collector of M1 Carbines, be aware that it will require considerable research and observation, otherwise it will be an expensive and consternating experience. Best to concentrate on one manufacturer at a time, like Inland. If you just want a good shooter, there are plenty at reasonable prices. We call them "Mixmasters".

Nothing wrong with mixmasters. They represent the practices of the armories of the time keeping troops supplied with weapons. It is also a commentary on the excellent production techniques and tolerances that allowed the interchange of parts. Yes, I can hear the "all matching or nothing" purists starting their tar boilers and gathering their pitchforks as I type. :D
 
Nothing wrong with mixmasters. They represent the practices of the armories of the time keeping troops supplied with weapons. It is also a commentary on the excellent production techniques and tolerances that allowed the interchange of parts. Yes, I can hear the "all matching or nothing" purists starting their tar boilers and gathering their pitchforks as I type. :D

Shoot, an "all matching" M1 carbine would be a huge red flag for me. As you said, the M1 carbine story is also one of really cool manufacturing and logistics accomplishments, and many, and maybe a majority, rolled right into the army's hands as what we'd call mixmasters. Hell, my M1 carbine is an Inland, but one where Saginaw even made the receiver for them. Trying to get all one manufacturer's parts on a carbine might be a fun project but it's definitely not how it left service, and likely pretty far removed from how it entered service too.

I'm personally of the mind to just leave em alone, but to each their own on that one.
 
Today’s price point will stretch the comfort level of some.

Many who can’t or don’t want to pony up will find a reason to dislike the gun.

These are popular for a reason and will surely sell out in short order.

I remember 10 years ago many thought I’d lost my mind paying $450 for a mint in box with shipper snub nose stainless Ruger Security Six. Wish now I’d a bought 10 of them at that price.
 
Not that long ago the CMP was selling bare Garand receivers, bought two, requested and received six digit ser # (would make them in the WWII dates) SA receivers, I got very lucky there. I also had a six digit SA Garand I bought from a fellow Bullseye shooter about six month prior, I swapped out most of the parts to bring that rifle up to as new as I wanted all of them to be. Focusing on building two rifles up to as new I had new barrels installed, bought new wood from Boyd's and bought all the parts from fellow CMP members on the forum. I did a lot of buying, selling & swapping until I had all like new parts, at that time parts were no problem to find and damn good prices because of the flood of parts. Once I had the two builds were completed the way I wanted them I sent them out to Tim Shufflin to have the barrels installed and reparked them. As I say my goal was to bring them back to "as new" and make them really great shooters, they both came out very nice, just like new. I care nothing about collecting so mixing maker of parts doesn't matter to me, I just wanted excellent condition parts. I became friends with Tim, one day he told me he had designed a 16" barreled version of the Garand named the Mini-G, I had that one bare receiver from the CMP left. He said he was looking for 5-6 people who would be interested in a bargain getting them built if they would run them through paces to see how they ran before announcing to the public he would be building them, I jumped at the opportunity and ended up with Mini-G #5, and so stamped ;-) The Mini-G's are the same length at the M1 Carbine and a ton of fun to shoot.

I also have a couple M1 Carbines I built the same way but those were barreled receivers I bought off the forum and I left the original barrels on those, they shoot well enough, the Carbines were never match guns and never will be, the Garand's on the other hand can be made to match grade rifles.

Check out Tim's website and his videos of the Mini-G on youtube http://shuffsparkerizing.com/services/the-mini-g/ [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlYJacucucQ[/ame]

Oh, and that Mini-G, I take that to the range much more often then I do the Garands. Also during those days the CMP was selling that good HXP surplus Garand ammo, spam cans of 192 rounds of ammo, on enbloc clips, in bandoleers for around $65 shipped, I bought a ton and still have a lot left, those were good times!
 
Another one of Tim's videos, this one with Tim showing the mag feed conversion he also does if one chooses to add that to the build, mine is not the mag fed version, just the 16" barrel conversion.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkTDYggQng8[/ame]
 
I recently picked up my first M1 and I love it. Shoots great and is a lot of fun. I still prefer the Garand but "why not both"?

I love the WW2 guns (on all sides but particularly American and German).
Knowing Audie Murphy used and loved it, I'm in!
 
Shoot, an "all matching" M1 carbine would be a huge red flag for me. As you said, the M1 carbine story is also one of really cool manufacturing and logistics accomplishments, and many, and maybe a majority, rolled right into the army's hands as what we'd call mixmasters. Hell, my M1 carbine is an Inland, but one where Saginaw even made the receiver for them. Trying to get all one manufacturer's parts on a carbine might be a fun project but it's definitely not how it left service, and likely pretty far removed from how it entered service too.

I'm personally of the mind to just leave em alone, but to each their own on that one.

This Standard Products M1 is an exception to the rule. The guy I bought it from had it since the early 1960s, and to his knowledge it had never been monkeyed with. On examination, I found that ALL parts, including the magazine, were Standard Products-made. I believe the way it looks now is the way it looked when it went to war from Port Clinton, Ohio in early 1944. The owner before me didn't try to bill it as all-matching or try to boost the price because of it. A side note - the work force at Standard Products at that time was almost all female, as most of the men were in the service.

John

 
Last edited:
M1 carbines

If you have the $$ it would be a good idea to try and get one, looking at the list a lot of them are sold out.
 
I recently picked up my first M1 and I love it. Shoots great and is a lot of fun. I still prefer the Garand but "why not both"?
If you can swing it, by all means get both so you experience the strengths and weaknesses of each. As great as the M1 Rifle was, you can see how time has passed it by. No modern army would field a rifle like that, except maybe as a crew-served weapon! :D Would anybody seriously consider using one for home defense? As others have posted here, the little carbine can serve that role just fine.

... the work force at Standard Products at that time was almost all female, as most of the men were in the service.
From period photographs of M1 Carbine production, I think the same was true at IBM. On a personal note, my Aunt Peg lost the tip of her little finger to a band saw working production at a defense plant during the war. I never heard her complain about it once. American women stepped up BIG TIME to win the war.
 
My take away from the linked piece is that the M2 wasn't a great success and that many soldiers went into spray and pray mode under stress. The latter is hardly a surprise.

From page 70: However, there is some illuminating comment. In the approximately 50 infantry actions covered, there were in all 7 witnesses who said that they had fired at an enemy soldier under conditions where there was no doubt the bullet struck him in a vital part of the body, and that he kept on coming. One such witness is 1st Lt. Joseph R. Fisher, 1st Marine Regiment. He was speaking of the defense at Hagaru-ri. The First Marine Division regarded him as one of its ablest and most objective company commanders. These were his words. "About 30 percent of our carbines gave us trouble; some wouldn't fire at at all; some responded sluggishly. But the main reason my men lost confidence in the carbine was because they would put a bullet right in a Chink's chest at 25 yards range and he wouldn't stop. This happened to me. The bullet struck home; the man simply winced and kept on coming. There were about half a dozen of my men made this same complaint; some of them swore they had fired three or four times, hit the man each time, and still not stopped him."

Inaccuracy

Complaint about the inaccuracy of carbine fire was general throughout First Marine Division following the Chosen Reservoir operation. In this action, there was considerable daylight fighting over a period of two weeks against enemy forces moving within moderate distances; these testing conditions do not occur frequently in Korean warfare. Koto-ri, Hagaru-ri, and Udam-ni were all virtually siege operations, with enemy pressing forward around the clock. There was a real opportunity for marksmanship to count. The accuracy of the carbine did not meet the requirements of the situation.
 
About three years ago, I found this National Postal Meter in a local shop. It was an Italian return gun, given the fat bellied Italian made stock. It was in a group of six or so carbines from an estate sale and the price was $700. I picked this one due to the overall condition and it's excellent bore. (The barrel has a 1943 man. date) There were others in the group in poorer condition, but with higher collector value do to their features. I wanted a good shooting example so that wasn't my top priority. I replaced the Italian stock with a new one of original WWII profile and I've been quite pleased with it. I doubted if I'd find a good one cheaper in the future, so I snapped it up.

165595462.GkMBU8er.jpg

165595465.snzkC9I2.jpg

165595473.nISAZcod.jpg

165595503.WXNBE73a.jpg


I've experienced good reliability with it. Original GI 15 round mags have been 100%. I've only experienced a couple of malfunctions in several hundred rounds with 30 round Korean mags. This has been with both fmj and softpoint ammunition. The mags are the real Achilles heel in the system. They're made of thin gauge metal and easily damaged, so they don't take rough handling. The other issue is, it needs proper lubrication with grease, like it's big brother the Garand. Awareness of these factors will eliminate most issues.

Regarding its effectiveness as a mankiller. There's been so much excrement written about that, much of it parroted right here. Everyone has the story of their father, brother, grandfather, best friends cousin of a guy who lived down the street, who had bad experiences with it. Sure, the cousin of a guy who lived down the street was a scared pantless 19 year old serviceman, who shot a charging Chinese soldier fifteen times at the frozen Chosin, before he put him down. Okay, did you shoot him fifteen times or shoot *at* him fifteen times? Did you pause in the middle of things, kneel down in the snow and check the hits? Of course you didn't, so the cousin of a guy who lived down the street is telling sea stories, just like old veterans do. I don't believe that any more than I believe the story, recounted upthread, of soldiers on Guadalcanal, Okinawa, or wherever, throwing them in trash cans.

Audie Murphy, the most highly decorated US serviceman of WWII, held the carbine as a favorite. My own father, a career marine with combat service in WWII, Korea and two tours in Vietnam, was a stone cold killer who had no problem with it. Jim Cirillo, of the NYPDs famous Stakeout Unit, stated the M1 Carbine was their most effective weapon. I personally don't need any other endorsements. I've personally hunted wild hogs in Texas with it and I never needed more than one shot on those notoriously tough animals. Like most firearms, it will work if you can shoot.

There have been comments in this thread comparing the costs of these Midway guns to that of an AR15. This myopic mindset is missing the forest for the trees. The two are purchased for entirely different reasons and priorities and that's an apples to oranges comparison. The M1 Carbine can certainly be used as a defensive tool, after all that's what it was designed for. In terms of home defense, it's a weapon anyone in a household can use if needed, from a ten year old child to a grown man. It's size, weight and lack of recoil make it a favorite in family outtings at the range. All that being said, there are better tools for defense here in 2021. The little carbine should really live on as primarily a recreational shooter and a fascinating piece of firearms history.

It doesn't matter what you or I paid for something in the past. The past is a different country and they do things differently there. I continually see people on this forum be very insulting to others because they paid far less for something years before. This is juvenile and unnecessary. The price paid in the past is irrelevant. The only purchasing factor should be what something may cost in the future. The cost of M1 Carbines will not be going down.

Regardless of all of this, I wouldn't pay Midway's prices.
 
Last edited:
My initial interest in the two I purchased (sold the first one) was a carbine for home defense. Before I figured out how to rebuild and maintain one I felt they were unreliable and can certainly understand why that's an opinion among many who own them. While I learned the mechanics of the M1 carbine I set mine aside and bought a Mini-14 for the duties of home defense. It's a better cartridge anyway and absolutely 100% reliable. Plus optics are easy to attach where the M-1 isn't designed for it. I have a lot of fun with my M-1 though, took it to the range on Friday. A few years ago a relative who is a novel writer/WW2 historian wanted some time on it so he could relate to it's use in WW2. He got what he wanted. He loved shooting it.
 
Last edited:
Regarding its effectiveness as a mankiller. There's been so much excrement written about that, much of it parroted right here. Everyone has the story of their father, brother, grandfather, best friends cousin of a guy who lived down the street, who had bad experiences with it. Sure, the cousin of a guy who lived down the street was a scared pantless 19 year old serviceman, who shot a charging Chinese soldier fifteen times at the frozen Chosin, before he put him down. Okay, did you shoot him fifteen times or shoot *at* him fifteen times? Did you pause in the middle of things, kneel down in the snow and check the hits? Of course you didn't, so the cousin of a guy who lived down the street is telling sea stories, just like old veterans do. I don't believe that any more than I believe the story, recounted upthread, of soldiers on Guadalcanal, Okinawa, or wherever, throwing them in trash cans.
s.
Then you have no confidence in the peer-reviewed-before-publication DOD DTIC document? http://smith-wessonforum.com/redirect-to/?redirect=https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/AD0000342
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

Back
Top