.41 rimfire cartridge or..?

Breakaway500 · Sep 10, 2023

Cleaning up the ammo shelves and came across these. No top to the box...look very old. They measure .407" in case diameter and bullet diameter. Overall length is .992" so about 1".
Looking at the 41 rimfire cartridges online all I see is reference to the .41 short..so usually if there is a "short" model there is a longer one but I can't seem to come across any info.

Just wondering..like maybe I bought them for a gun I own..or someone gave them to me. Probably all duds now so moot point..but still like to know. (One photo shows it next to a 45acp werewolf round

biku324 · Sep 10, 2023

41 Short looks close:

Case type
Rimmed, straight
Bullet diameter
.405 in (10.3 mm)
Neck diameter
.406 in (10.3 mm)
Base diameter
.406 in (10.3 mm)
Rim diameter
.468 in (11.9 mm)
Case length
.467 in (11.9 mm)
Overall length
.913 in (23.2 mm)
Primer type
Rimfire

DWalt · Sep 10, 2023

There was indeed a .41 Long RF cartridge. It was made for the Colt New Line revolvers, not the Derringers. Its case length is given as 0.63" The .41 Short case length is about 0.47". The .41 Short bullet diameter was reduced slightly when smokeless loadings appeared. There is not much reliable information regarding the ballistics of the .41 Short from the Remington Double Derringers, but it is generally agreed that the MV was around 500 ft/sec and that the muzzle energy was below 100 ft-lb. The bullet weight is given as 130 grains. Not too long ago, .41 Short ammunition was still being made in Brazil for US sales, probably not any longer. Full boxes of original US-made ammo are in the several hundred dollar range. Maybe more today.

TLflag · Sep 10, 2023

.41 Short Rimfire

I have a two piece box of Winchester .41 Short Rimfire that is stamped for Rifle only in 3 places. After a lot of research, I found that there was an extra tax on pistol ammo in the old days. Don't know of any rifles ever chambered for .41 Short Rimfire. which would have been a waste of time.
Terry

s&wchad · Sep 10, 2023

Yup, .41 Long Rim-Fire. The "H" headstamp (Henry) was used by Winchester.

This is the regular .41 Rim-Fire (short) used in the Remington Derringer (photo swiped off the net).

I've got a full box of Winchester .41 Long RF, but I wrapped it in plastic to protect the box and don't want to open it.

DWalt · Sep 10, 2023

TLflag said:
I have a two piece box of Winchester .41 Short Rimfire that is stamped for Rifle only in 3 places. After a lot of research, I found that there was an extra tax on pistol ammo in the old days. Don't know of any rifles ever chambered for .41 Short Rimfire. which would have been a waste of time.
Terry

Some states once had taxes on handgun ammunition but not rifle ammunition. I have several old ammunition boxes where handgun ammunition is labeled as rifle ammunition. I read the story on that somewhere but do not remember the details.

Model19man · Sep 10, 2023

Breakaway500 said:
Cleaning up the ammo shelves and came across these. No top to the box...look very old. They measure .407" in case diameter and bullet diameter. Overall length is .992" so about 1".
Looking at the 41 rimfire cartridges online all I see is reference to the .41 short..so usually if there is a "short" model there is a longer one but I can't seem to come across any info.

Just wondering..like maybe I bought them for a gun I own..or someone gave them to me. Probably all duds now so moot point..but still like to know. (One photo shows it next to a 45acp werewolf round

There is a 41 Long Rimfire cartridge. It's pretty expensive stuff starting at around $250 for a 50 round box.

rockquarry · Sep 11, 2023

s&wchad said:
Yup, .41 Long Rim-Fire. The "H" headstamp (Henry) was used by Winchester.

This is the regular .41 Rim-Fire (short) used in the Remington Derringer (photo swiped off the net).

I've got a full box of Winchester .41 Long RF, but I wrapped it in plastic to protect the box and don't want to open it.

Don't shoot one of those at heavy cardboard - it may come back to you...

DWalt · Sep 11, 2023

It may be wimpy, but the .41 Short fired from a DD had about the same energy as a .22 so it was not harmless. The DD was in fairly wide use at the time and was made and sold for close to 70 years, so it must have had something going for it. Many of the DDs I have seen had broken barrel hinges. I sort of remember hearing or reading that Gen. MacArthur carried a DD on him, I'll have to look that up.

Apparently that story is true. MacArthur mentioned it in his memoirs, also that his staff would scrounge ammo for him, so he must have at least occasionally practiced with it. That was probably before he fled the Philippines. I wonder what happened to it?

And of course Paladin kept a DD hidden in his gunbelt.

Breakaway500 · Sep 11, 2023

Looking at that 41 rimfire short next to the 1/16th scale,I'm pretty sure the ones I have are 41 long rimfire as the case is substantially...longer. I don't have anything that shoots these but maybe I'll put them up for sale, if they actually have value.

desi2358 · Sep 11, 2023

Breakaway500 said:
Looking at that 41 rimfire short next to the 1/16th scale,I'm pretty sure the ones I have are 41 long rimfire as the case is substantially...longer. I don't have anything that shoots these but maybe I'll put them up for sale, if they actually have value.

I am sure someone would want them. The value is highest for a complete box but lots of guys collect loose rounds or partial boxes as well. Even a box without the lid is still going to have some collector interest to a rimfire collector.

rockquarry · Sep 11, 2023

desi2358 said:
I am sure someone would want them. The value is highest for a complete box but lots of guys collect loose rounds or partial boxes as well. Even a box without the lid is still going to have some collector interest to a rimfire collector.

I guess those are the ones on Gunsmoke that Doc Adams easily retrieved with his pliers.Bullets broke the skin and were barely under the surface; little more than a scratch.

DWalt · Sep 11, 2023

rockquarry said:
I guess those are the ones on Gunsmoke that Doc Adams easily retrieved with his pliers.Bullets broke the skin and were barely under the surface; little more than a scratch.

Of course that was fiction. However in the 19th Century before antibiotics, gunshot victims, even from a minor wound, were as likely, or more likely, to die from infection than from tissue damage.

WR Moore · Sep 11, 2023

I recall the late Skeeter Skelton writing that while he and his horse were waiting at the end of the patrol route for the Border Patrol pickup & trailer to pick them up, he decided to test his .41 Remington backup on a telephone pole. The first round didn't even bury itself in the pole. Thinking it was a bad round, he fired the other barrel. Same thing. He cleaned and retired it that night.

I do wonder though, if the BP version had more oomph?

Breakaway500 · Sep 11, 2023

Still better than a sharp stick.

DWalt · Sep 11, 2023

WR Moore said:
I recall the late Skeeter Skelton writing that while he and his horse were waiting at the end of the patrol route for the Border Patrol pickup & trailer to pick them up, he decided to test his .41 Remington backup on a telephone pole. The first round didn't even bury itself in the pole. Thinking it was a bad round, he fired the other barrel. Same thing. He cleaned and retired it that night.

I do wonder though, if the BP version had more oomph?

I have read that the later smokeless load bullets went a little faster. I remember reading an article written by someone who had chronographed both BP and smokeless loads.

Model19man · Sep 11, 2023

Breakaway500 said:
Looking at that 41 rimfire short next to the 1/16th scale,I'm pretty sure the ones I have are 41 long rimfire as the case is substantially...longer. I don't have anything that shoots these but maybe I'll put them up for sale, if they actually have value.

The problem is shipping can be very troublesome and expensive. A Face To Face sale is more likely.

desi2358 · Sep 12, 2023

WR Moore said:
I recall the late Skeeter Skelton writing that while he and his horse were waiting at the end of the patrol route for the Border Patrol pickup & trailer to pick them up, he decided to test his .41 Remington backup on a telephone pole. The first round didn't even bury itself in the pole. Thinking it was a bad round, he fired the other barrel. Same thing. He cleaned and retired it that night.

I do wonder though, if the BP version had more oomph?

Yeah, I remember reading this too. Don't recall if he stated what ammo he was using but would suspect it was newer smokeless stuff as the round was still regularly available until the 1960's.

My own experiences with various calibers and black powder loads versus smokeless indicated that black powder had noticeably more recoil compared to modern ammo. This was with original ammo that I shot mainly to see if it still worked. I have loaded black powder in various center fire old west calibers just for fun but with modern brass you can't get as much powder in as the old cases held and always suspected that the rimfire stuff was down loaded when they went to smokeless.

Another thought I had at the time was telephone poles are a lot harder than the skin of a person. I wouldn't expect much penetration with any low velocity handgun round in a pole but it should go a lot deeper into a human. I wondered at the time if Skeeter was expecting the kind of performance a hot 38 or 357 would give? A logical thought for general law enforcement who might have to shoot through obstacles, heavy clothing, etc. Not considering that the little derringers were basically meant for close up use. An old friend used to say "It's a get off me gun".

Forehand · Dec 6, 2024

Pretty sure that I have a 41 Long. Got and F & W revolver that has a noticeably longer cylinder than my other one.
Have a Swamp Angel in 41 rf and a model 41.
Shòt them both, used the French reloadable fodder.
But that Model 41 has a considerably longer cylinder.
Been using Swiss BP, but thinking about a pinch of Unique...such an undertaking isn't taken lightly though.

sigp220.45 · Dec 7, 2024

I tried some of the more recent Navy Arms .41 rimfire in my old Remington (with backyard hinge repair). It blew through a 2x6 and kicked up dirt on the backstop.

.41 rimfire cartridge or..?

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