Wait for M1903 or buy this Enfield?

The .303 Pattern 14 Enfield, mfg’d in the US by Eddystone (Remington subsidiary), Remington and Winchester actually didn’t see a whole lot of use in WW1 as by the time factories actually worked the kinks out of P14 production (which wasn’t until 1916), SMLE production was full-speed in the UK. IMO the P14/1917 Enfield IS A BETTER rifle (best sights of any WW1 design), but in reality, the 03 is what you want. And if not an 03, then a 1917 30-06 Enfield (not a P14) would be second in line. Of the three, the 1917 saw the most service overall, but 03s just have that cool factor.

Buuuuuut, nearly any milsurp that’s in “great shape” is a pretty solid deal for $600 these days.
 
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Were any Enfield made in 1916 made in England and if so how could I know? Would there be a mark or something.

No- they were contracted to Eddystone, Remington and Winchester here in the states. Marked ERA, RA, and W. Small arms production in the UK was geared towards SMLEs, Webley revolvers, Lewis guns and Vickers guns.
 
Cool to learn something new about WW1, thanks for all the info. So I'm guessing this one that is 550$ is such because it is doubtful it actually saw any action. I'll admit that's a bit of a bummer, is there any chance it did or is it virtually zero due to SMLE production taking off as you say? Because 1916 would leave two years for potential military duty for the gun and I'd guess they would use all the guns they could.
 
I think the post got confusing - the way I read his post was that the OP was looking at a British Enfield .303 not a 1917 but really wanted a 1903.
If it is a 1917, then I would get it and look for a 1903 down the road. He is interested in American WWI history so why not stick with American issued rifles, not a British one. And then he would have the two US Service rifles from WWI.
There …. Did I muddy the water further or clear it up ?
 
I think the post got confusing - the way I read his post was that the OP was looking at a British Enfield .303 not a 1917 but really wanted a 1903.
If it is a 1917, then I would get it and look for a 1903 down the road. He is interested in American WWI history so why not stick with American issued rifles, not a British one. And then he would have the two US Service rifles from WWI.
There …. Did I muddy the water further or clear it up ?

You are correct that I'm more interested in the M1903 because I am an American History teacher. The rifle I'm looking at is a Lee Enfield made in 1916 not 1917. In this thread people keep referring to it as a p14 but I saw no such markings on it and it's being sold as an Enfield in 303 British. I'll have to do more digging to find out if it's American or British made.
 
Cool to learn something new about WW1, thanks for all the info. So I'm guessing this one that is 550$ is such because it is doubtful it actually saw any action. I'll admit that's a bit of a bummer, is there any chance it did or is it virtually zero due to SMLE production taking off as you say? Because 1916 would leave two years for potential military duty for the gun and I'd guess they would use all the guns they could.

While no one can say with absolute certainty that P14s didn’t see any front line service during WW1, it appears that most saw second hand/home guard, rear echelon use as by 1916 SMLEs were in the hands of practically all British troops and were being distributed to Canadian forces (replacing the Ross Mk III) by early that summer. By that point in the war the British were doing away with the mag cut-off and volley sights on the SMLE (Mk III was becoming Mk III*). It took US factories over a year to tool up and get high enough QC for acceptance and by the time they finally did the all out need for rifles wasn’t what it had been in late 1914/early 1915.

It appears though that what you’re looking at is a SMLE No 1 Mk III* mfg’d in 1917. If so, it’s likely an Enfield, BSA, SSA or LSA production and that was the workhorse of the British army. Don’t believe it saw any real service with US forces.
 
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What is the going price today for an original condition Springfield M1903 from the WWI period? I have one I am thinking about selling, haven't decided to yet. Dated mid-1917. .
 
What is the going price today for an original condition Springfield M1903 from the WWI period? I have one I am thinking about selling, haven't decided to yet. Dated mid-1917. .

How high is the original condition? Original, non-rebuilt examples seem to bring $1200-2kish. Considerably more if in minty condition.
 
I disagree. No collection id worthwhile unless you have them all. I agree about the bayonet.

I agree completely. I've accumulate a lot more since this picture was taken and just about all have bayonets. Some of the bayonets cost more than the rifle they go on!

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Were any Enfield made in 1916 made in England and if so how could I know? Would there be a mark or something.

Enfield, Enfield, Enfield,,

The British SMLE (Short, Magazine Lee Enfield) was first produced in MkI form in England in 1904 . Cal 303
The MkI and MkI* were made into 1907 when the MkIII was introduced.

Still the 'SMLE', the MkIII was modified from the MkI rifles mainly in the way the charger bridge was made.
The MkI series used a separate right hand charger part attached to and sliding on the bolt head.
The MkIII dispensed with all that went to the very common rivited in place heavy, one piece over the top charger bridge.

Several Brit Arsenals made the Mk1 and the MkIII rifles including some like Sparkbrook that didn't survive the MkI era and others like the secretive Peddled Scheme rifles of WW1 wartime production.

The rifles were also made at the British Commonwealth Arsenals in India (Ishapor) and in Australia at Lithgow.
Lithgow rifles generally bring a premium. Condition of course is everything.
Lithgow never made the MkI series but instead started with the MkIII.

None of these rifles were ever called or marked as No1 MkIII until the mid 1920's.
That's when the British decided to number their battle rifles and No1 was attached to the SMLE
A 1916 dated SMLE should simply be marked on the socket MkIII or MkIII*(cut-off, volley sights, wind adj rear site elliminated on the latter).

(Rifles w/o the '*' (Star) marking bring more $$ as they have the goodies mentioned above, or at least are supposed to have them. Not uncommon for the Cut-off and Windage Adj rear site to be missing. The latter replaced with the later non adj site. Check ser# on the underside of the site tangent bar.

The No2 rifle was the .22rf conv of the SMLE
No3 was the Pattern 1914 .303
To come was the No4 Rifle in the late 30's along with the #5 (Jungle) Carbine version

The 1917 30-06 was the US Model 1917 Rifle cal 30.
Never was officially an Enfield but got the name from being a modification of the Pattern '14 British rifle.

SMLE's have gone up in price and value very quickly in the past few yrs.
Very good specimens are hard to find and like most US 1903's and 1917's, (and Garands and Carbines) most are now parts rifles.

That doesn't make SMLE's any less shootable. But for a collector, the mismatched parts (some ser#'d, many marked by Arsenal mfg and identifiable by era of mfg) very quickly lowers value.

SMLE's are usually covered in Proof, Inspector, Arsenal and Rework Marks & Dates.
Getting a good education on those is a good start to knowing what you have in hand and what it's worth.
You have to sort out the orig Arsenal rebuild part from the bubba/'smith/hobbyist replaced part.
.and like most of these Milsurps the parts are getting more expensive and harder to get. There's even some repro parts for them now they are so popular.

They are fun shooters, reloading for them is easy as any other CF cal.
They have a habit of generous headspace, but if you size & load your brass to your rifles chamber and then only neck size, you control the HS and have little issues..

You don't need a bunch of magazines though they are detachable. The mag was meant to be left in the rifle and reloaded from the open bolt with charger clips or single rounds.

None of these classic WW1 or WW2 rifles are getting any less expensive.
Passing on a good one for a decent price means paying a lot more for the same later on,,if you can find one.
 
If you're looking for a 1903 that actually saw field use, you're probably not looking for one in great condition. Military rifles are tools and are treated as such. The high condition ones are generally the ones that were not issued, were issued to rear areas or are arsenal rebuilds predominately with mismatched parts.

I guess my question is what do you consider field use and what condition are you looking for? As I said above, the ones with "history" generally are not the mint ones-unless a general owned it. ;)

I have several civil war carbines that are in too good of condition to have seen much use.

The same with 1903's. I have one RIA manufactured rifle with numbers stamped in the stock (rack numbers?). It was made in 1908 and re-barrelled in 1917. Not mint condition but plenty of "history".
 
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Enfield, Enfield, Enfield,,

The British SMLE (Short, Magazine Lee Enfield) was first produced in MkI form in England in 1904 . Cal 303
The MkI and MkI* were made into 1907 when the MkIII was introduced.

Still the 'SMLE', the MkIII was modified from the MkI rifles mainly in the way the charger bridge was made.
The MkI series used a separate right hand charger part attached to and sliding on the bolt head.
The MkIII dispensed with all that went to the very common rivited in place heavy, one piece over the top charger bridge.

Several Brit Arsenals made the Mk1 and the MkIII rifles including some like Sparkbrook that didn't survive the MkI era and others like the secretive Peddled Scheme rifles of WW1 wartime production.

The rifles were also made at the British Commonwealth Arsenals in India (Ishapor) and in Australia at Lithgow.
Lithgow rifles generally bring a premium. Condition of course is everything.
Lithgow never made the MkI series but instead started with the MkIII.

None of these rifles were ever called or marked as No1 MkIII until the mid 1920's.
That's when the British decided to number their battle rifles and No1 was attached to the SMLE
A 1916 dated SMLE should simply be marked on the socket MkIII or MkIII*(cut-off, volley sights, wind adj rear site elliminated on the latter).

(Rifles w/o the '*' (Star) marking bring more $$ as they have the goodies mentioned above, or at least are supposed to have them. Not uncommon for the Cut-off and Windage Adj rear site to be missing. The latter replaced with the later non adj site. Check ser# on the underside of the site tangent bar.

The No2 rifle was the .22rf conv of the SMLE
No3 was the Pattern 1914 .303
To come was the No4 Rifle in the late 30's along with the #5 (Jungle) Carbine version

The 1917 30-06 was the US Model 1917 Rifle cal 30.
Never was officially an Enfield but got the name from being a modification of the Pattern '14 British rifle.

SMLE's have gone up in price and value very quickly in the past few yrs.
Very good specimens are hard to find and like most US 1903's and 1917's, (and Garands and Carbines) most are now parts rifles.

That doesn't make SMLE's any less shootable. But for a collector, the mismatched parts (some ser#'d, many marked by Arsenal mfg and identifiable by era of mfg) very quickly lowers value.

SMLE's are usually covered in Proof, Inspector, Arsenal and Rework Marks & Dates.
Getting a good education on those is a good start to knowing what you have in hand and what it's worth.
You have to sort out the orig Arsenal rebuild part from the bubba/'smith/hobbyist replaced part.
.and like most of these Milsurps the parts are getting more expensive and harder to get. There's even some repro parts for them now they are so popular.

They are fun shooters, reloading for them is easy as any other CF cal.
They have a habit of generous headspace, but if you size & load your brass to your rifles chamber and then only neck size, you control the HS and have little issues..

You don't need a bunch of magazines though they are detachable. The mag was meant to be left in the rifle and reloaded from the open bolt with charger clips or single rounds.

None of these classic WW1 or WW2 rifles are getting any less expensive.
Passing on a good one for a decent price means paying a lot more for the same later on,,if you can find one.

Sorry if me referring to them that way struck a nerve it's just easier to type it shorthand. Sort of like I would with most models. This one seems all original parts, though I admit I didn't give much of an inspection. My friend who was with me and is also a historian confirmed it appeared to be all original. It's 550 and while I wouldn't say the wood is mint (it looks like it saw field use" the bolt action and functional elements all seemed pristine.
 
Sorry if me referring to them that way struck a nerve it's just easier to type it shorthand. Sort of like I would with most models. This one seems all original parts, though I admit I didn't give much of an inspection. My friend who was with me and is also a historian confirmed it appeared to be all original. It's 550 and while I wouldn't say the wood is mint (it looks like it saw field use" the bolt action and functional elements all seemed pristine.

None of those WW1-era Lee-Enfields are all original. Most have been rebuilt at least twice. All orig 1903s are uncommon, 100% all orig Enfield are practically unheard of.
 
Sorry if me referring to them that way struck a nerve it's just easier to type it shorthand. Sort of like I would with most models. This one seems all original parts, though I admit I didn't give much of an inspection. My friend who was with me and is also a historian confirmed it appeared to be all original. It's 550 and while I wouldn't say the wood is mint (it looks like it saw field use" the bolt action and functional elements all seemed pristine.

Not at all!, Sorry if I came across like that.
I was just typing away as I seem to do and SMLE's and Long Lee Enfields are a favorite of mine so info came forth.

Sounds like a nice rifle. 550 in todays market is not at all bad for a nice condition Brit or Australian mfg WW1 dated SMLE IMO.
We could talk all day long about the $25 near mint rifles of years ago,,but that was ..years ago.
This is today.
Hope it works out for you!
 
How high is the original condition? Original, non-rebuilt examples seem to bring $1200-2kish. Considerably more if in minty condition.
Not rebuilt, it does have a replacement hand guard, but it is the correct type. I do have the original handguard which is split. Not perfect, does show some use wear, has the usual dings in the wood. VG bore. Unbent bolt handle. Overall, I'd say around 80%.
 
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