10mm Pistol Cartridge

AJ said:
I have four boxes of Liberty Ammunition "Civil Defense" in 10MM. It only has a 60 grain JHP bullet, however it is rated at 2400 FPS. It has 780 FPE. No desires to have to use it for defense, but if it lives up to it's claims ought to do a fair job.
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They have some interesting products

That stuff happens to be made right here in Florida

They also have a 50 grain .355 projectile

50%20gr%20tch.jpg


I grabbed a few thousand of each projectile a few years back.

I want to try the 10MM projectiles in the 10MM Magnum cartridge

I plan on using the .355s in the 357 SIG cartridge

Should be able to get some pretty spectacular velocities out of both of those cartridges.
 
colt_saa said:
That last statement may have been true 15-20 years ago, but it is more of an Urban Legend today.

These were mostly released in the last 5-10 years:
The SIG 180 V-Crown leaves the P220 at 1250 FPS for 624 pound feet of muzzle energy
The FEDERAL 180 Trophy Bonded departs at 1275 FPS for 650 pound feet of muzzle energy
The Hornady 180 XTP also runs at 1275 FPS for 650 pound feet of muzzle energy
The Winchester 180 bonded JHP has a 1240 FPS muzzle velocity for 615 pound feet of muzzle energy

So the Boutique ammunition houses do not have the market cornered on powerful 10MM Auto ammo

Yes it is true that several of the other major manufacturers have not yet stepped up to the plate with a return to more powerful ammunition, but they will as time goes on

The last decade has seen an explosion of new firearms from virtually every manufacturer. It only make sense that new ammunition offerings have to follow
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A proper, full power 180gr 10mm Auto load ought to be driving that bullet at least 1300fps, if not 1350.

Don't get me wrong, 180grs @ 1200+fps is still significantly hotter than .40 S&W which would be doing 950-1000fps MAX, but it still isn't quite full-power, and to me, if you're going to choose 10mm Auto over .40 S&W — considering that the size/weight/cost all go up substantially — you want real full-power 10mm Auto performance, which is a 200gr projectile traveling a 1200fps.

Granted, the hotter 10mm Auto loads tend to overpenetrate, thus escalating the risk of collateral damage in an urban environment, but this is true of practically any load that's significantly hotter than .40 S&W, ergo shaving off 25-75fps isn't going mitigate that risk because most 180gr .40 S&W loads are going to penetrate right to the edge of FBI Specs. Heck, 180gr XTPs will hit 21" in FBI Calibrated Ballistics Gel, despite the fact that they're only flying at 1000fps.
So if overpenetration is a concern, then frankly 10mm Auto is probably too powerful for your current environment, and thus it makes no logical sense to purchase and carry a 10mm Auto Pistol if you're just going to be shooting FBI Loads when a Pistol chambered in .40 S&W is going to be smaller, lighter, substantially less expensive, and equal the performance of a 10mm FBI Load.

There's a reason why most folks who carry 10mm Auto are living in a rural environment with four-legged predators being a consideration.
 
A lot of sportsmen and women as well as pros in bear country have traded their heavy revolvers for 10mm pistols.
Fact of the matter is very few people can truly put fast; accurate follow-up rounds downrange with large caliber revolvers.
 
jimmyj said:
I am considering a 10mm Model 29SF for CCW to be an alternative to my Glock Model 30 .45acp.
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A 10 is very similar in performance to a .41 Mag, That round was developed for law enforcement, so yea, a 10 should be great if you can handle the recoil and hit consistently with it.
 
Shibadog said:
A 10 is very similar in performance to a .41 Mag, That round was developed for law enforcement, so yea, a 10 should be great if you can handle the recoil and hit consistently with it.
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The 10MM is a very misunderstood caliber

The decades old John Taffin article that compares the 41 Magnum cartridge to the 10MM, is not referencing the 10MM Auto cartridge, it is referencing the 10MM Magnum cartridge

10mm_mag_comparrison.jpg


Time and/or the internet has people dropping the word Magnum then posting about the comparison. Eventually the comparison gets passed on from person to person with folks thinking of the reference to the wrong cartridge

The 10MM Auto cartridge was not developed for Law Enforcement, though the 41 Magnum was developed for LE.

Col. Cooper was wanted to develop a better Defensive cartridge back in the early 1980s. The10MM Auto was officially released in 1983

It wasn't until after the April 11th 1986 FBI shootout in Miami that Law Enforcement started looking toward the 10MM Auto cartridge as a replacement for their current firearms inventories

The first adoption of the 10MM Auto cartridge by Law Enforcement was in 1989 when the FBI selected that cartridge and the Smith and Wesson 1076 as their new sidearm with the HK MP5/10 as their new sub machine gun
 
colt_saa said:
That last statement may have been true 15-20 years ago, but it is more of an Urban Legend today.

These were mostly released in the last 5-10 years:
The SIG 180 V-Crown leaves the P220 at 1250 FPS for 624 pound feet of muzzle energy
The FEDERAL 180 Trophy Bonded departs at 1275 FPS for 650 pound feet of muzzle energy
The Hornady 180 XTP also runs at 1275 FPS for 650 pound feet of muzzle energy
The Winchester 180 bonded JHP has a 1240 FPS muzzle velocity for 615 pound feet of muzzle energy
So the Boutique ammunition houses do not have the market cornered on powerful 10MM Auto ammo

Yes it is true that several of the other major manufacturers have not yet stepped up to the plate with a return to more powerful ammunition, but they will as time goes on

The last decade has seen an explosion of new firearms from virtually every manufacturer. It only make sense that new ammunition offerings have to follow[/QUOTE

OK. Now list the same specs for 40 S&W for the same manufacturers with the same bullets.........You won't see a lot off difference.
Also most ammo from general mfg'ers won't live up to the spec sheets list. Never has never will.......Do you own a cronograph?
BTW....I have 3 10's and 2 40's.
Click to expand...
 
colt_saa said:
That last statement may have been true 15-20 years ago, but it is more of an Urban Legend today.

These were mostly released in the last 5-10 years:
The SIG 180 V-Crown leaves the P220 at 1250 FPS for 624 pound feet of muzzle energy
The FEDERAL 180 Trophy Bonded departs at 1275 FPS for 650 pound feet of muzzle energy
The Hornady 180 XTP also runs at 1275 FPS for 650 pound feet of muzzle energy
The Winchester 180 bonded JHP has a 1240 FPS muzzle velocity for 615 pound feet of muzzle energy
So the Boutique ammunition houses do not have the market cornered on powerful 10MM Auto ammo

Yes it is true that several of the other major manufacturers have not yet stepped up to the plate with a return to more powerful ammunition, but they will as time goes on

The last decade has seen an explosion of new firearms from virtually every manufacturer. It only make sense that new ammunition offerings have to follow[/QUOTE

OK. Now list the same specs for 40 S&W for the same manufacturers with the same bullets.........You won't see a lot off difference.
Also most ammo from general mfg'ers won't live up to the spec sheets list. Never has never will.......
BTW....I have 3 10's and 2 40's.
Click to expand...
 
Mike said:
colt_saa said:
That last statement may have been true 15-20 years ago, but it is more of an Urban Legend today.

These were mostly released in the last 5-10 years:
The SIG 180 V-Crown leaves the P220 at 1250 FPS for 624 pound feet of muzzle energy
The FEDERAL 180 Trophy Bonded departs at 1275 FPS for 650 pound feet of muzzle energy
The Hornady 180 XTP also runs at 1275 FPS for 650 pound feet of muzzle energy
The Winchester 180 bonded JHP has a 1240 FPS muzzle velocity for 615 pound feet of muzzle energy
So the Boutique ammunition houses do not have the market cornered on powerful 10MM Auto ammo

Yes it is true that several of the other major manufacturers have not yet stepped up to the plate with a return to more powerful ammunition, but they will as time goes on

The last decade has seen an explosion of new firearms from virtually every manufacturer. It only make sense that new ammunition offerings have to follow
Click to expand...

OK. Now list the same specs for 40 S&W for the same manufacturers with the same bullets.........You won't see a lot off difference.
Also most ammo from general mfg'ers won't live up to the spec sheets list. Never has never will.......Do you own a cronograph?
BTW....I have 3 10's and 2 40's.
Click to expand...
All of those companies comparable 40 S&W loads all hover around the 1000 FPS mark. If you think I am lying to you, you can go do your own research

I currently own several chronographs, though I have found myself using my LabRadar almost exclusively since I got it many years ago. My first chronograph was an Ohler model 33 that I picked up sometime in the 1980s and I have never been without one since

I have chronographed many thousands of rounds of ammunition both from the factories and from my personal handloads in a multitude of different firearms over the decades

BTW....I currently own 21 firearms chambered for the 10MM Auto cartridge along with 5 firearms chambered for the 10MM Magnum cartridge and about a dozen firearms chambered for the 40 S&W Cartridge. Though truth be told I have never been a very big fan of the 40 S&W.

I have converted half a dozen or so firearms to the 10MM Auto cartridge plus I have built a few from the ground up

I also developed the 240 grain subsonic, jacketed JHP ammunition that my friends company submitted to the
Federal Government for use in their next generation of integrally suppressed 10MM submachine guns.

But this is getting to be a real thread drift from Jimmy's original post.

If you think that the pros and cons of the 40 S&W versus the 10MM Auto cartridge debate needs to be carried on further, you should probably start a new thread in this section
 
Mike said:
OK. Now list the same specs for 40 S&W for the same manufacturers with the same bullets.........You won't see a lot off difference.
Also most ammo from general mfg'ers won't live up to the spec sheets list. Never has never will.......
BTW....I have 3 10's and 2 40's.
Click to expand...

You're right, but the 10mm crowd is mostly brainwashed into believing velocity is the end all be all. They all tout velocities and muzzle energy as if that in itself means one round and caliber will out do the other.
 
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Well Armed said:
You're right, but the 10mm crowd is mostly brainwashed into believing velocity is the end all be all. They all tout velocities and muzzle energy as if that in itself means one round and caliber will out do the other.
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10mm crowd...
They all...

Not a good look. Stop digging.
 
Mike said:
OK. Now list the same specs for 40 S&W for the same manufacturers with the same bullets.........You won't see a lot off difference.
Also most ammo from general mfg'ers won't live up to the spec sheets list. Never has never will.......
BTW....I have 3 10's and 2 40's.
Click to expand...

180gr .40 S&W loads effectively max out at 1000fps, which is effectively a hard limit to the cartridge's capabilities because it was designed to maintain the performance of the FBI's reduced power 10mm Loads, and to go any hotter you practically need a longer case.

I've matched a fair amount of 10mm Auto Gel Tests on YouTube by Tools&Targets and the loads he listed tend to be pretty close to the specs on the box, so they're definitely a fair degree hotter than .40 S&W, traveling a good 200-275fps faster, make no mistake about that.

My argument was that they're still a good 100fps shy on average of full-power loads, and frankly I feel that 200grs @ 1200fps is the benchmark for full-power 10mm Auto performance, which I've yet to see offered by anyone besides boutique loaders. Not to mention that because we don't know exactly where the TC lives, we cannot be sure whether anything hotter than 10mm FBI Loads is advisable due to the risk of collateral damage caused by overpenetration.

Assuming TC lives in anything but a Rural Environment, he'd be better off sticking with his Glock 30 because 10mm FBI Loads aren't really any more powerful or effective than a respectable Standard Pressure 185gr .45 ACP load, let alone +P.
 
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Note that the reduced power FBI load is not all that different from a .45 ACP with the same weight projectile. The 1076 was as big as a real .45 and a lousy choice for concealed carry, not to mention all the trouble the FBI (and my old agency) had with the platform. It shot well and I found it friendly, but it broke and broke a LOT.
 
Alk8944 said:
There is no question that the 10mm cartridge is more than adequate for self-defense. It will definitely "get the job done" if needed.

One thing to keep in mind. A man in Arizona used a 10mm in a self-defense scenario which resulted in the death of the attacker. An over-zealous County Attorney attempted to charge the shooter with murder as in his opinion by carrying such a powerful pistol indicated the prior intent to kill if the situation ever arose to shoot an attacker. Ridiculous abuse by the Prosecutor and the man was eventually exonerated, but he should never have been charged! Cost him a bunch before a final resolution!:mad: It can happen.
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Do you have a link to a verifiable news source on this, case law etc Ballistically the 10mm and the .357 Magnum are pretty much twins in that department. Once the 10mm is 220gr an 230gr bullets then it's a different ball game. I've yet to see a case prosecuted based on the victim using a .357 Magnum load... it would be nice to read the story on this one.
 
Everyone should have legal protection whether they carry outside the home or just worry about protection inside the home. I would have to think that the prosecutor in that case was a liberal one and tended to not know what he was talking about. That is where a good gun legal defense lawyer would come in handy.

As far as the 10mm is concerned, it is only as good as your aim.
 
IAM Rand said:
I would have to think that the prosecutor in that case was a liberal one and tended to not know what he was talking about.
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*
Most lawyers have only the slightest exposure to use of force, maybe 2 contact hours in Criminal Law I. My estimate, confirmed by other knowledge people, is that MAYBE 1000 lawyers in the entire country know enough about use of force to not be engaging in malpractice. Most prosecutors are not in that 1000.
 
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