The True Distance of a Typical Gunfight
- Thread starter SGT ROCK 11B
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So much paranoia among gun owners about using their guns for SD. I have drawn my gun several times over the years to ward off a physical attack on my small statured body. Immediately changed the would be assailant's mind. Never called 911 to report the event out of irrational fear of being a "suspect". Aggressive people know when they risk being a suspect and calling 911 to report you is probably the last thing on their mind. Those afflicted with the "what if syndrome" are always able to find a way to be fearful no matter what the scenario.
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Yes, a bonafide swine does not report something to the police. The "what iffers" need something to worry about and their lists are endless.
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Item - calling 911 to report the fact that you drew your weapon in public is not a requirement anywhere - but it is common sense. You don't know who saw you besides the goblins that ran away. "Brandishing" is the offense you might - MIGHT - be charged with when some dodo who didn't see the whole incident calls 911 himself. Naturally, if it's in the dark and nobody around you could sensibly make a different decision. Just remember that our non-gun-friendly citizenry can and will report what they see.
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I have had one for many decades. I always take it with me when I go out for a healthy walk. It has lots of uses......
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I have had one for many decades. I always take it with me when I go out for a healthy walk. It has lots of uses......
Thanks for the criticism/observation.
I don't think I am "wholly consumed" or anything like that. I am aware of that problem and yours is a reasonable caution. I am much more consumed with all aspects of debate, argument, persuasion, etc. and in particular currently how language affects how we know things and how we decide things. What you are seeing me do here is apply some of those principles to our discussion of the OP's question.
So, I conclude from your observance that I did not convince anybody of anything, but I don't know where I am wrong. The thread after all is on a very important aspect of gunfighting theory, range and reach, so I offered two truths that give me the fundamental practical answer. These two truths are not minutiae, far from it. (I do love minutiae though...)
A typical gunfight is an atypical fight, but it is still a fight.
The distance is a car length, because that is how so many of them come about.
No point drifting the thread into a discussion of my personality, instead show me where I am wrong.
Kind Regards!
BrianD
That's an old assumption. People commiting petty theft or low-yield, low-risk robbery do it for money. Every maggot knows that free money is available from even nuisance lawsuits - if they get $20, that's enough to start a high. Maurice Cordova got sued by a freakin' aggravated assault/aggravated burglary puke who he shot in his own home!
Maggots talk, often to other maggots, and they all know hungry lawyers from social media, TV, or prior representation.
Things change.
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I have to go with the concise post I already made; it includes what I think is wrong with your comments. Your posts have such esoteric and theoretical details the reader may have difficulty comprehending your message, though reading it several times helps. I'll go no further with this.
From Tom Givens of Rangemaster Firearms Training:
67 incidents with shots fired involving his former students. Three of those students were killed because they were unarmed at the time of the attack. The other 64 fought back and survived. Only three had minor injuries and none of them were convicted of any wrongdoing.[/QUOTE]
Per the last numbers I've read in about. It's seven (7) distance and a total of 2.5 rounds total are fired.
67 incidents with shots fired involving his former students. Three of those students were killed because they were unarmed at the time of the attack. The other 64 fought back and survived. Only three had minor injuries and none of them were convicted of any wrongdoing.[/QUOTE]
Per the last numbers I've read in about. It's seven (7) distance and a total of 2.5 rounds total are fired.
Only once because as a detective I only had six spare rounds w/me. I never made that mistake again.
DWalt
Member
I have reached the same conclusion about my house. Due to its size and layout, 20 feet would be about the maximum likely unobstructed interior distance to a living target before walls get in the way. My largest single room is 22 feet square and a hallway of about 35 feet. My conclusion is that if you have enough marksmanship ability keep all shots (from a handgun) on a piece of typing paper from 5 to 7 yards, that is good enough for home defense. Even my worst handgun can do that.
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I was involved in a robbery attempt a few years back where no shots were fired. It was after 8pm, in a parking lot, multiple attackers 3-5 yards away. Long story short, I saw them waiting as I was getting grocery sacks out of my trunk. I put the sacks under my arm, pulled my revolver out, never pointing it anywere other than the ground, popped the cylinder as if I was checking it, and as I was closing it I looked up and saw everyone walking quickly away.
I called 911, not to tell on myself for drawing a weapon. But to let the police know of the attempt and give them the location and description of the bad guys. I made no mention of drawing my weapon, nor was I asked about it. I was never called back by an officer. I'm sure they took it as area info and gave it to the district car and that's where it ended.
If you're among the crowd that believes in being first in line to call 911, remember that everything you say is admissable in court and you can report a situation without implicating yourself or any misdeed you may have done. I don't believe you have any ethical obligation to turn yourself in for what may or may not have been legal but I do believe you have an ethical obligration to report the attempt and give police a description. Their next victim may not be so lucky.
I called 911, not to tell on myself for drawing a weapon. But to let the police know of the attempt and give them the location and description of the bad guys. I made no mention of drawing my weapon, nor was I asked about it. I was never called back by an officer. I'm sure they took it as area info and gave it to the district car and that's where it ended.
If you're among the crowd that believes in being first in line to call 911, remember that everything you say is admissable in court and you can report a situation without implicating yourself or any misdeed you may have done. I don't believe you have any ethical obligation to turn yourself in for what may or may not have been legal but I do believe you have an ethical obligration to report the attempt and give police a description. Their next victim may not be so lucky.
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That’s the truth. I was sued for false arrest after I retired. I think the ambulance chaser thought I’d Fail to Appear but he misjudged me because I showed up and gave a deposition and the case was ultimately dismissed.
Why should a citizen report having to draw their firearm? Because there are cameras everywhere these days...
The Last Standing Knight
Member
Most distances involved in such matters have always been very, very (card table)short range. This would normally in an urban enviroment preclude no longer than a four inch barrel.
While Texas has open carry (I seldom see this), it always pays NOT to advertise although one's style of clothing...such as what Mas Ayoob called a "Shoot-me-first" vest tend to make people suspect you are packing something.
Many of the homeless population with "violent antisocial tendencies" I have dealt with are not scared of a firearm and won't back down even when seeing one. Many do...I have had several close shaves of this kind and although I never even tried to clear leather, they would back off...but like everything else, that isn't a 100%.
At my age and shape, I have NO intention of going up physically against anyone anymore and I go out of my way to avoid trouble and I trust my gut instinct. If something doesn't feel right...it isn't. Likewise, situational awareness is essential but as humans, we can't run all the time at full alert.
Another thing to consider is that bad guys tend to travel and operate in packs of three to four...all usually armed and many already out on bail from previous "indescreations". They have no fear of ramifications. How many shots can you get off accurately and under those conditions before you got shot yourself?
Packing is like insurance policy and a double edged sword. You carry in the hope you NEVER have to use it or even show it. If you do, I can guarentee you will have $ignifficant problems especially with a system that tends to favor the bad guys more than the good guys. In addition, I don't care if you and the perp are in the middle of Antartica during a blizzard you'll have about twenty or thirty "witnesses" who saw everything and tell the media how the perp "was such a good person trying to get their life around"...
All of us who carry can/should know and realize that.
While Texas has open carry (I seldom see this), it always pays NOT to advertise although one's style of clothing...such as what Mas Ayoob called a "Shoot-me-first" vest tend to make people suspect you are packing something.
Many of the homeless population with "violent antisocial tendencies" I have dealt with are not scared of a firearm and won't back down even when seeing one. Many do...I have had several close shaves of this kind and although I never even tried to clear leather, they would back off...but like everything else, that isn't a 100%.
At my age and shape, I have NO intention of going up physically against anyone anymore and I go out of my way to avoid trouble and I trust my gut instinct. If something doesn't feel right...it isn't. Likewise, situational awareness is essential but as humans, we can't run all the time at full alert.
Another thing to consider is that bad guys tend to travel and operate in packs of three to four...all usually armed and many already out on bail from previous "indescreations". They have no fear of ramifications. How many shots can you get off accurately and under those conditions before you got shot yourself?
Packing is like insurance policy and a double edged sword. You carry in the hope you NEVER have to use it or even show it. If you do, I can guarentee you will have $ignifficant problems especially with a system that tends to favor the bad guys more than the good guys. In addition, I don't care if you and the perp are in the middle of Antartica during a blizzard you'll have about twenty or thirty "witnesses" who saw everything and tell the media how the perp "was such a good person trying to get their life around"...
All of us who carry can/should know and realize that.
smoothshooter
Member
In my opinion, the shooting training is usually the least important part of a CCW class. More important is gun safety, and a general understanding of the use of force laws in the state of residence, repeatedly going through shoot/no shoot scenarios.
fatcat3
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Save your $ and make a monkey fist. from considerable observation blunt force trauma is more effective that stabs or slashes. The old rock in a sock vs shives and shanks, better than a rehash of J-Frame v Dick-Special, 9mm v 45, 270 v30-06, etc.
Save your $ and make a monkey fist. from considerable observation blunt force trauma is more effective that stabs or slashes. The old rock in a sock vs shives and shanks, better than a rehash of J-Frame v Dick-Special, 9mm v 45, 270 v30-06, etc.
An added plus is you never have to worry about being the first geezer on your block to get a 'Red Flag' merit badge!
Mr. Vito
Member
Here in Illinois the shooting requirement for the concealed carry license involves shooting 10 rounds each at 3 distances: 5, 7 and 10 yards. To pass, you must get 21 rounds on the paper. The target itself is a very large piece of paper with a sillouette shape on it, approximately 2x3 feet in size. The 21 shots do not have to hit the black sillouette, only to be on the paper. You could get 10 of 10 at the 5 and 7 yard distances and then would need only 1 of the 10 at 10 yards, and still pass. There were several folks in the class that I took that had never handled a handgun until that day, and everyone passed the test.
FWIW, I recall reading that Earle Stanly Gardner, the author and former police detective from Chicago, had stated that most self defense shootings take place at about 6 feet. It doesn't take much skill to hit an adult human at that distance. The key is to have the gun in your hand and a round in the chamber. Carrying at other than Condition 1 makes no sense to me.
FWIW, I recall reading that Earle Stanly Gardner, the author and former police detective from Chicago, had stated that most self defense shootings take place at about 6 feet. It doesn't take much skill to hit an adult human at that distance. The key is to have the gun in your hand and a round in the chamber. Carrying at other than Condition 1 makes no sense to me.
"Perry Mason!"
Do you think Cooper's carry conditions apply to other handgun types like my 3rd gen S&W semis?
Do you have any opinion on the burning controversy right now regarding the un-commanded discharges of Sig Sauer's P320? I ask you because some of that community are insisting on carrying on an empty chamber.
With 140 posts, maybe we should let this thread end.
