Took my Red dot off....

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nksmfamjp said:
If that is how you or any of us are shooting, we are dead. Everything except the target has to move to subconscious mode. The correct answer for how you hit the target is I looked at it and decided to fire. Everything else is subconscious.

That said, the right way to train sight alignment is set the front sight to the target, as dot comes into view on target, pull trigger. The transition to dot is all based on the distance and accuracy needed. Super short, just shoot.
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“If that is how you or any of us are shooting, we are dead.”

So far “how” I’m shooting hasn’t killed anyone.(y)

“Everything except the target has to move to subconscious mode.”

Really??.... As good as my subconscious might be, our subconscious minds can make mistakes. Muscle memory works really good right up to the time it doesn’t. For me, taking aim at a person who I interpret as a lethal threat, there will be a level conscious decision-making, as instantaneously as my consciousness will do.

I did not say what state – conscious or subconscious - my “visual focus” or my "mental focus" was in.

“The correct answer for how you hit the target is I looked at it and decided to fire. Everything else is subconscious.”

That may be the “correct answer for how you hit the target”, but it IS NOT the correct answer for how I hit the target.

How I shoot should have zero effect on how you or others shoot.

What is conscious or subconscious on any given range day depends upon what exactly my intentions are. Some days I do skill drills just for fun when my shooting is more subconscious. Some range days I’m sighting in an optic, laser, or a front iron sight when my shooting is way more conscious than subconscious. Some days I’m practicing trigger control, so my focus is very conscious.

Based upon being a gun owner for 48 years, hitting the range once or twice a month with 10 range buddies, who are retired military, military/LE firearms instructors, and high level security professionals, I believe “the right way to train..” is highly subjective.

Using a dot optic is based on multiple considerations.. “distance and accuracy” may not be the primary consideration.

So essentially I disagree with everything you said.:giggle:
 
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David Sinko said:
This exactly. I will add that in competitive shooting events where time is critical the red dot shooter almost always wins. This doesn't mean that they are seeing and using the red dot on targets that are two feet away but they are certainly seeing and acquiring the red dot quickly even at moderate distances. Longer distance is where the red dot is invaluable. At my last qualification I was hitting a man target at 100 yards from prone. While this may be more relevant to the police perspective it's always nice to know the capabilities and benefits of your equipment.
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Just curious. What course of qualification fire called for you to engage targets at 100 yards with a handgun?
 
xpistols said:
Just curious. What course of qualification fire called for you to engage targets at 100 yards with a handgun?
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There is no qualification I know of that calls for 100 yard handgun shots. This was my own initiative. I know that my personal Glock 19 with RMR on a mounting plate shoots high at 50 yards and even higher at 100 yards. My duty gun is a 47 with a Holosun mounted directly to the slide. The duty gun shot only a few inches high at 100 compared to 12" or more with the 19. I don't have a whole lot of experience with different red dots and I can't explain it but I felt obligated to verify. We have a few rifles but they don't always get signed out. The two most important lessons learned for me are that I do NOT need my reading glasses to hit with the red dot and that I SHOULD be able to make hits at 100 yards with the red dot. And if the red dot fails I can still see my iron sights, as long as I have my reading glasses.
 
Dots for range guns, competition guns, USPSA/SCSA/Rimfire/and others, and long guns.
Never for personal defense handguns.
 
David Sinko said:
There is no qualification I know of that calls for 100 yard handgun shots. This was my own initiative. I know that my personal Glock 19 with RMR on a mounting plate shoots high at 50 yards and even higher at 100 yards. My duty gun is a 47 with a Holosun mounted directly to the slide. The duty gun shot only a few inches high at 100 compared to 12" or more with the 19. I don't have a whole lot of experience with different red dots and I can't explain it but I felt obligated to verify. We have a few rifles but they don't always get signed out. The two most important lessons learned for me are that I do NOT need my reading glasses to hit with the red dot and that I SHOULD be able to make hits at 100 yards with the red dot. And if the red dot fails I can still see my iron sights, as long as I have my reading glasses.
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Me either. I took your statement of "At my last qualification I was hitting a man target at 100 yards" to infer it was part of the qual. Playing around to see what adjustments are needed at various distances makes sense, with or without a red dot.
 
I took the red dots off most of the "defensive" guns I own. I still use them for target shooters. I'm not trying to shoot fast with those.
The only SD gun left with a dot is my 365XL with a Romeo One, and I set it up as a dot pistol when I bought it, and practice shooting with the Romeo.
I learned to point it correctly, and the dot is on the target when presented, the same view as good irons.
I decided I didn't need to learn a new manual of arms for each pistol I consider to be "defensive".
I still have Romeo5's on my 10/22's, and a Tacticon Red/Green on my 10/22 Charger. Again, targets, or careful aim if trying for pests.
 
Our dear friend Joe (name changed to protect the innocent) is a very, very skilled USPSA competitor who shot low-Master with irons back in the day in Limited and went to the dot where he kept his very high finishes.
He also had, in a past life, experience as a well-trained armored car guard and armed security guard before getting into retail/corporate. And he's also a very capable instructor, too.
He carried a P365 with an optic as his EDC. He had occasion to bring it out a few weeks ago when he arrived at a store with a work vehicle and was approached by two unsavory-looking types, who ordered him to unlock the vehicle he had just exited. The command was amplified by a large knife in one of the fellows' hand.
Our friend brought his Sig to bear and... yes, the dot wasn't there. Battery dead, failed to start, who knows. But Joe spent a good second and half coming to grips with the situation- he is a very fast guy- and was able to get a suitable aim without the dot finally once that brief distraction and confusion was overcome.
Fortunately, the knife guy made the correct decision to depart the scene post-haste as Joe wasn't going to miss no matter what.
Joe says he will never have a dot on a carry gun again and he went back to shooting Limited to reacquaint himself with good ol' irons.
Just one single anecdote to add to the big picture.
 
Harv 24 said:


I've been a big red dot fan for years and have carried one on my EDC for years. But after watching this video (which is not new info for any student of the red dot or CC.) But after doing some dry fire draws from concealment, I have to face the honest truth. There are times I have to go "Fishing" for the dot. I consider myself a pretty solid shooter with many years under my belt. But as I get older, I find I have less ability to practice from concealment and perfect my draw stroke.

I took the red dot off and kept drawing and the excellent big green front/blackened rear on My Shield X always presents itself center mass to the target. And like the video says, under duress of a fight for your life situation, Fishing for the dot is not something I want to do. and while I stay proficient and dry fire a lot and get out to the range at least twice a month, in the end, the dot is not as consistent on presentation as I would like. Is it a training issue? Sure is. Do I want to spent the time and ammo to correct it?? I do not.

Do I shoot better at distance with a red dot?? You bet I do. Can I still hit center mass on a guy at 25 yards?? You bet I can. Will it be a pretty fist size group?? probably not, but in the end I'm responsible for me and mine and my decision is mine.

I'm sharing my thoughts and experience and if your running a dot and you comfortable with it , keep doing it. I'm not here to sway anyone.
Am I ready to carry a pocket .38?? not anytime soon...I'm old...Not dead...:LOL:
Click to expand...

I work for an LGS and we've had this conversation many times. A couple of guys are adamant that the optic is better. So, we had a shooting competition and guess what? Iron shooters were faster to target, faster to fire first, and not any worse in shot placement than the optics guys. One of the optics guys is no longer sporting an optic on his carry pistol...
 
CherryRiver said:
Our dear friend Joe (name changed to protect the innocent) is a very, very skilled USPSA competitor who shot low-Master with irons back in the day in Limited and went to the dot where he kept his very high finishes.
He also had, in a past life, experience as a well-trained armored car guard and armed security guard before getting into retail/corporate. And he's also a very capable instructor, too.
He carried a P365 with an optic as his EDC. He had occasion to bring it out a few weeks ago when he arrived at a store with a work vehicle and was approached by two unsavory-looking types, who ordered him to unlock the vehicle he had just exited. The command was amplified by a large knife in one of the fellows' hand.
Our friend brought his Sig to bear and... yes, the dot wasn't there. Battery dead, failed to start, who knows. But Joe spent a good second and half coming to grips with the situation- he is a very fast guy- and was able to get a suitable aim without the dot finally once that brief distraction and confusion was overcome.
Fortunately, the knife guy made the correct decision to depart the scene post-haste as Joe wasn't going to miss no matter what.
Joe says he will never have a dot on a carry gun again and he went back to shooting Limited to reacquaint himself with good ol' irons.
Just one single anecdote to add to the big picture.
Click to expand...
Thankfully Joe is who he is. I took the optic red dot off my P365 Micro. It hung up on clothing during a draw and I just couldn't find that little red thingy quick enough.
 
Removed laser grips from my 640-1, replaced them with grips that support my pinky, replaced the front sight with XS tritium big dot, plus had the barrel ported either side of the front sight. A great defensive pistol day or night, stays more level if a follow-up shot is needed, excellent at night in low light, just push it out a bit to avoid hot blast, or push it into your opponent to enhance their last memory sensation. The big dot is great for my 79 year old eyes, day or night, and allows me to stay focused on the target.
 
CollinCountyLawman said:
"Red dots may hide your problems on a good day and absolutely expose it on a bad day." This is it right here. The real problem with red dots is not the device itself, but rather it hides the shooter's real skill level.

My agency is going to an issued weapon and a red dot. I see qualification scores being artificially raised as much, if not greater, than when agencies switched from .40S&W to 9mm. Red dots become a crutch for pistol shooters.

"Red dots are the future, but iron sights are not dead." I disagree with the first part. Red dots are not the future. Red dots are the present. Every arresting agency in my jurisdiction issues a Glock 17 or Glock 45 with a red dot. The state police are issued Sig P320s or 365s with red dots. The future remains unknown. The real test is going to be when an officer has an OIS and his red dot malfunctions. Yes, red dot qualification class teaches you what to do is the red dot fails. However, it's a one and done training. After that agencies just qualify with their red dot.

We have a large municipal agency with an officer who had a negligent discharge and killed a suspect. The officer claimed he was attempting to activate his pistol mounted light with his trigger finger and pulled the trigger instead. The agency immediately adopted a policy of no pistol lights. I could see something similar happening with the red
Click to expand...

CollinCountyLawman said:
"Red dots may hide your problems on a good day and absolutely expose it on a bad day." This is it right here. The real problem with red dots is not the device itself, but rather it hides the shooter's real skill level.

My agency is going to an issued weapon and a red dot. I see qualification scores being artificially raised as much, if not greater, than when agencies switched from .40S&W to 9mm. Red dots become a crutch for pistol shooters.

"Red dots are the future, but iron sights are not dead." I disagree with the first part. Red dots are not the future. Red dots are the present. Every arresting agency in my jurisdiction issues a Glock 17 or Glock 45 with a red dot. The state police are issued Sig P320s or 365s with red dots. The future remains unknown. The real test is going to be when an officer has an OIS and his red dot malfunctions. Yes, red dot qualification class teaches you what to do is the red dot fails. However, it's a one and done training. After that agencies just qualify with their red dot.

We have a large municipal agency with an officer who had a negligent discharge and killed a suspect. The officer claimed he was attempting to activate his pistol mounted light with his trigger finger and pulled the trigger instead. The agency immediately adopted a policy of no pistol lights. I could see something similar happening with the red dot.
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For a civilian self defense edc situation i will not use a red dot or anything other than iron sights. If the shtf and I needed to go to 11b military mindset even then id be reluctant, scopes of any sort arent for a grunt trained man. Snipers are a different story , plinking for fun at the range is also. Just my feelings about it. But I like standard shift vehicles also so
.......
 
Let's see....an old guy that can no longer see his iron sights or the old guy that can at least see the red dot:-) What ever you use...practice, practice!
 
I'm no paragon of authority when it comes to red dots. Or guns. Or ANYTHING, for that matter. But I'm 78. And I've heard for a long time about guys going to red dots to address failing eyesight. For me it's just the opposite: I bought 3 red dots a coupl'a years ago. Put 'em on. Shot 'em for a bit. Took 'em off. Not working for me. I depend on my peripheral vision when shooting. I see better with irons than with dots. My peripheral vision is better than 180° as best I can tell and I want to be able to see as much as I can. (I have the same views about motorcycles...I see better, more aware of my surroundings, on a bike, but...78!). Anyway I'm not sold. I'm sure they have a role in target shooting or when playing games...ISPC, whatever...but I'm not a fan.
One man's opinion.
 
I believe that we all revert to training when the excrement strikes the rotary oscillator. I like red dots but after tens of thousands of rounds without them I'm just not up to starting over. Irons will have to do for me and for almost 60 years, they have.
 
Another note from direct experience in our training business.
When the first commonly available dot gun came out, the Sig P320 Romeo, we bought one as soon as we could since we got a lot of older folks just getting in to owning a handgun. For a while, seniors dominated our Intro classes.
We thought the dot would be just the ticket for aging eyes. We were wrong. Almost from day one, we saw that the seniors did not care for the optics, but on the other hand, teenagers and young adults were more inclined towards them.
We sold that thing off anyway. The Romeo One optic wouldn't hold zero for more than a couple of weeks- we had to re-zero it before class so as not to confuse the newbies. And the trigger was inconsistent, and difficult to get proficient with as a result.
 
REParker said:
I'm no paragon of authority when it comes to red dots. Or guns. Or ANYTHING, for that matter. But I'm 78. And I've heard for a long time about guys going to red dots to address failing eyesight. For me it's just the opposite: I bought 3 red dots a coupl'a years ago. Put 'em on. Shot 'em for a bit. Took 'em off. Not working for me. I depend on my peripheral vision when shooting. I see better with irons than with dots. My peripheral vision is better than 180° as best I can tell and I want to be able to see as much as I can. (I have the same views about motorcycles...I see better, more aware of my surroundings, on a bike, but...78!). Anyway I'm not sold. I'm sure they have a role in target shooting or when playing games...ISPC, whatever...but I'm not a fan.
One man's opinion.
Click to expand...
I had to Google "paragon".:unsure:
 
David Sinko said:
There is no qualification I know of that calls for 100 yard handgun shots. This was my own initiative. I know that my personal Glock 19 with RMR on a mounting plate shoots high at 50 yards and even higher at 100 yards. My duty gun is a 47 with a Holosun mounted directly to the slide. The duty gun shot only a few inches high at 100 compared to 12" or more with the 19. I don't have a whole lot of experience with different red dots and I can't explain it but I felt obligated to verify. We have a few rifles but they don't always get signed out. The two most important lessons learned for me are that I do NOT need my reading glasses to hit with the red dot and that I SHOULD be able to make hits at 100 yards with the red dot. And if the red dot fails I can still see my iron sights, as long as I have my reading glasses.
Click to expand...
They are few and far between but I have been required to hit a 100 yard target in two couses (and have required it in a few courses I taught).

There were the API-599 and the Urban Combat Skills Course - both at Gunsite. At the Rangemaster Advanced (5 day) course we sometimes had students shoot handguns at 100 yards - but it wasn't part of the qualification course.

In my "fire for effect" course we didn't shoot at 100 as I recall but we did have a Pass/Fail drill which shot at a 4" balloon at 50 yards. Every student passed, some on the first shot, some later ;)

It is not 100 but the old FBI RQC required 18 rounds at 50 yards, 6 of those rounds were fired "weak hand" (their term not mine). Those were required and the 50 yard stage could make or break the shooter if he missed much.

As with David S. My own personal training program almost always includes a 100 yard handgun shot.

Riposte
 
Riposte1 said:
They are few and far between but I have been required to hit a 100 yard target in two couses (and have required it in a few courses I taught).

There were the API-599 and the Urban Combat Skills Course - both at Gunsite. At the Rangemaster Advanced (5 day) course we sometimes had students shoot handguns at 100 yards - but it wasn't part of the qualification course.

In my "fire for effect" course we didn't shoot at 100 as I recall but we did have a Pass/Fail drill which shot at a 4" balloon at 50 yards. Every student passed, some on the first shot, some later ;)

It is not 100 but the old FBI RQC required 18 rounds at 50 yards, 6 of those rounds were fired "weak hand" (their term not mine). Those were required and the 50 yard stage could make or break the shooter if he missed much.

As with David S. My own personal training program almost always includes a 100 yard handgun shot.

Riposte
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Only reason I've ever shot at 100 with a pistol was to verify the basics were still solid. Used 1 gallon water/milk jugs at 100, easy to see you hit the jug and not looking for any more accuracy at that distance from my SD pistols.

Been finishing range sessions with a mag, sometimes two at 100 for decades.
 
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Brownie0486 said:
Only reason I've ever shot at 100 with a pistol was to verify the basics were still solid. Used 1 gallon water/milk jugs at 100, easy to see you hit the jug and not looking for any more accuracy at that distance from my SD pistols.

Been finishing range sessions with a mag, sometimes two at 100 for decades.
Click to expand...
Though I know of a few actual long shots taken by LEOs or in defense of LEOs, my real reason for practicing long shots is deer hunting - I've taken two deer at around 100 yards with handguns, but that is my limit on range, though I have practiced, occasionally, at out to 300 meters on a military range. I have passed the Army Rifle Qual every time I've shot it with a pistol, nothing stellar but passed, I once shot 1 hit below expert with a stock 1911a1.

I did shoot a woodchuck at 200 meters once but I admit it was an embarrassing stunt and it was on a commercial range with a known distance target bank and I knew where to hold at that range. The gun was a 5.5" Super .38 loaded with Win. SilverTips.

Still, even if one has no practical purpose it is not only educational, it is fun! :)

Riposte
 
As a "Gun Guy", I like to carry a variety of different handguns. Some have red dots. Most of the time I don't need to search for the dot. But I can't imagine if I go one handed, I'd be able to find the dot quickly. I have iron back-ups on all my dot guns. Most of the time I stick with Irons.

If I was a dedicate one handgun guy that trained with said handgun constantly, a dot would probably be my choice.
 
Anybody should realize that lifting a gun with a Red Dot up to your line of sight doesn't
automatically make the dot appear on the target. YOU have to do a good job of iniitially lining up the pistol AND your line of sight on the target immediately. I believe I could use Red Dots effectively, but I don't have them on any pistols designated for SD and don't want any. People think Red Dots and Laser Sights are magic and lose sight of the fact that they still have to do everything quickly and correctly to successfully make an SD shot. I love having my Red Dot on my AR rifle for range fun.
 
Riposte1 said:
Though I know of a few actual long shots taken by LEOs or in defense of LEOs, my real reason for practicing long shots is deer hunting - I've taken two deer at around 100 yards with handguns, but that is my limit on range, though I have practiced, occasionally, at out to 300 meters on a military range. I have passed the Army Rifle Qual every time I've shot it with a pistol, nothing stellar but passed, I once shot 1 hit below expert with a stock 1911a1.

I did shoot a woodchuck at 200 meters once but I admit it was an embarrassing stunt and it was on a commercial range with a known distance target bank and I knew where to hold at that range. The gun was a 5.5" Super .38 loaded with Win. SilverTips.

Still, even if one has no practical purpose it is not only educational, it is fun! :)

Riposte
Click to expand...
I don't own any hunting pistols. Probably have a few whose caliber would work, but I'm not a hunter nor all that concerned with making 100 yrd shots except to verify my basics are still solid as I age out of shooting as I used to.

The 100 is fun because it's just a personal challenge that few experiment with.
 
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GnarlsR2 said:
“If that is how you or any of us are shooting, we are dead.”

So far “how” I’m shooting hasn’t killed anyone.(y)

“Everything except the target has to move to subconscious mode.”

Really??.... As good as my subconscious might be, our subconscious minds can make mistakes. Muscle memory works really good right up to the time it doesn’t. For me, taking aim at a person who I interpret as a lethal threat, there will be a level conscious decision-making, as instantaneously as my consciousness will do.

I did not say what state – conscious or subconscious - my “visual focus” or my "mental focus" was in.

“The correct answer for how you hit the target is I looked at it and decided to fire. Everything else is subconscious.”

That may be the “correct answer for how you hit the target”, but it IS NOT the correct answer for how I hit the target.

How I shoot should have zero effect on how you or others shoot.

What is conscious or subconscious on any given range day depends upon what exactly my intentions are. Some days I do skill drills just for fun when my shooting is more subconscious. Some range days I’m sighting in an optic, laser, or a front iron sight when my shooting is way more conscious than subconscious. Some days I’m practicing trigger control, so my focus is very conscious.

Based upon being a gun owner for 48 years, hitting the range once or twice a month with 10 range buddies, who are retired military, military/LE firearms instructors, and high level security professionals, I believe “the right way to train..” is highly subjective.

Using a dot optic is based on multiple considerations.. “distance and accuracy” may not be the primary consideration.

So essentially I disagree with everything you said.:giggle:
Click to expand...
Good thing I don’t need your agreement! I’m glad this works for you. Nobody should do what others say, but some testing of things that sound helpful is always worthwhile.
 
I am experimenting with a Ruger Ready Dot, with a 15 MOA dot, yes 15 MOA. It has no batteries and it uses a fiber optic thingy to illuminate the dot. The dot therefore isn’t useable in low light. For lowlight use I installed a large tritium front sight from XS sights and I use the red dot opening as a really big ghost ring. The sights roughly co-witness with the red dot in my case. One down side to the Ready Dot is that it is not adjustable, luckily in my application it aligns very closely as far POI/POA.

For a micro compact, this rig works better for me than the more conventional red dots, for speed.

If this Rube Goldberg rig holds up, and I can get proficient with it, I’ll EDC carry it.

So far it seems to work for me.
 
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