S&W Ruined My Gun!!!!

BSA1 said:

Since the gun O.P. purchased was used it seems probably someone
had worked on the action to smooth and lighten the trigger pull. This opens a whole can of worms about how well
the work was done. While he says the double action trigger pull was 7# he doesn’t say what the single action trigger pull was.

He also doesn’t say if the hammer could be pushed off when it was cocked for single action. I am sure other Forum members as well as myself have encountered light trigger
pulls that actually made the gun unsafe to shoot.

Since someone had worked on the action is it possible the same someone had also replaced the original front sight with a higher one?

As for the .003” b/c gap he must not shoot very many rounds before needing to clean the front of the cylinder

Methinks someone is complaining way to much or just trying to stir up hate towards S&W.

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ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!

Rust E. Badge said:

There is no true "Performance Center" anymore. Almost all PC work is performed by the most experienced line employees. When enough PC work is in que, these employees are assigned to fill PC orders. Most do an excellent job. It is template driven, not old-school handmade and fitted. And hasn't been for a number of years. If that is what you seek, get off of the wallet and find a revolver focused gunsmith (who may be extinct) in 10 - 15 years. The chances of you finding a true S&W factory -trained revolver gunsmith is limited. Most of the "masters" (whatever that means) are gone.

And of course, they "spec'ed" the gun. Acceptable factory cylinder -barrel gap is 4 to 10 thousands. They will not release "out of spec" guns. Have we forgotten that this the age of liability. Chevrolet dealers will not work on your jet fuel injected car and McDonald's will not cook a hamburger using the venison your bring to them.

Good luck.

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I did not know that. Most of my much older smiths measured 4/1000's regularly [ when I was collecting and bought several from this site ].

My 90's 642-1's gap is 8/1000's. I was always under the impression that smith opened up that gap as they were getting a lot of revos back with cylinder bind that were closer to 4 than otherwise [ which created less warranty work ].

That up to 10/1000's is acceptable surprised me. Thanks for the intel

Blain said:

I found a nice 3-5-7 series 5" 686 at a local gunstore. Super smooth and light trigger (~7lbs double action) and tiiiight .003 cylinder gap. Was getting really high velocity numbera with this tight of a gap. Was a REALLY nice gun. Shot great and had no issues ignighting primers as long as I kept the strain screw tightened.

Only issue is, gun was shooting much too low. Had to ramp the rear sight up signifigantly (~2/3rds the way up). The front sight on it was much too tall (had the taller 4" front sight insted of the shorter 6").

I sent it in to S&W and asked them to swap out the too tall front sight with a shorter 6" front sight. Got an email back that the gun is on the way back, called in to confirm what they did to gun....was HORRIFIED!!!!

I was told that they....

1.) "Adjusted the barrel and the yoke / crane" (F'd up my cylinder gap)

And

2.) Replaced the mainspring (F'd up my niiiice trigger).

When asked why they did all that instead of just swapping out the front sight, I was told that,

"They must have figured it was a barrel alignment issue and not a sight issue so they realigned the barrel and reset the crane / yoke."

Was also told that they likely swapped out the mainspring for similar reasons "to bring it back to factory specs" (likely had a FTF so instead of tightning the strain screw they just fudgeed my trigger pull and doubled it).

What's worse is this "repair work" wasn't done by the performance center but by the monkeys on the floor / general assembly line. So it REALLY got butchered by people who don't care / don't know what they're doing.

I'M PISSED NOW!!!!!!


They took a near PERFECT revolver and RUINED it!!!!!

I will send it back and demand that the perfornance center fix what was butchered!!!!

Click to expand...

Blain said:

I found a nice 3-5-7 series 5" 686 at a local gunstore. Super smooth and light trigger (~7lbs double action) and tiiiight .003 cylinder gap. Was getting really high velocity numbera with this tight of a gap. Was a REALLY nice gun. Shot great and had no issues ignighting primers as long as I kept the strain screw tightened.

Only issue is, gun was shooting much too low. Had to ramp the rear sight up signifigantly (~2/3rds the way up). The front sight on it was much too tall (had the taller 4" front sight insted of the shorter 6").

I sent it in to S&W and asked them to swap out the too tall front sight with a shorter 6" front sight. Got an email back that the gun is on the way back, called in to confirm what they did to gun....was HORRIFIED!!!!

I was told that they....

1.) "Adjusted the barrel and the yoke / crane" (F'd up my cylinder gap)

And

2.) Replaced the mainspring (F'd up my niiiice trigger).

When asked why they did all that instead of just swapping out the front sight, I was told that,

"They must have figured it was a barrel alignment issue and not a sight issue so they realigned the barrel and reset the crane / yoke."

Was also told that they likely swapped out the mainspring for similar reasons "to bring it back to factory specs" (likely had a FTF so instead of tightning the strain screw they just fudgeed my trigger pull and doubled it).

What's worse is this "repair work" wasn't done by the performance center but by the monkeys on the floor / general assembly line. So it REALLY got butchered by people who don't care / don't know what they're doing.

I'M PISSED NOW!!!!!!


They took a near PERFECT revolver and RUINED it!!!!!

I will send it back and demand that the perfornance center fix what was butchered!!!!

Click to expand...

Blain, I'm really sorry you have to deal with all this buddy. I'm also a 686 fan (6" bbl) and would be furious if the factory screwed up my revolver. I'm a retired engineer and spent the majority of my career in industry, so I have a pretty good idea how the typical factory floor works. I'm surprised S&W has mechanics on the shop floor doing this kind of work. Frankly, it makes zero sense to me.
While a number of the men here knew S&W would not just fix your front sight as you asked, but screw with the rest of your revolver, I did not know this. I probably would have gone to a local gun smith for a minor repair job like this, but only because it's easier. Sending a revolver back to the factory for any kind of repair is very reasonable. I think you're going to get a great revolver back from the performance center.

How in the world can someone be so mis-informed in this day and age in the subject of returning a firearm to the factory for repair work as the OP is? It is more than common knowledge that any firearm returned to any factory will be returned to "in-spec" condition. Parts deemed unsafe or altered will be replaced and the customer will be rightfully charged for that repair work. This is no different than many other companies operate. If you have a motor vehicle that has had a computer reflash for more performance and take it to a dealership for work they will no doubt re-flash your computer with the factory program. It happens all the time and has been so for many years. It's all about safety and liability. Period, end of complaint.

To have a revolver with a .003" B/C gap is incredibly lucky, but to have several with an honest .003" B/C gap is beyond belief. Just measuring a .003" B/C gap properly requires skill many do not have. There is an art to correctly measure B/C gap and it isn't just jamming in different size feeler gages until one doesn't go in. In my estimation a B/C gap of .006" to .008" is the best for all situations and sometimes even that isn't enough room with lead bullets of questionable quality. The last thing any revolver shooter should want to have happen is cylinder lockup due to a too small B/C gap. .003" B/C gap sounds great to a keyboard shooter, but in practical application it can be a curse when it's that tight. Naturally being who I am, I would have to ask the OP if he measured ALL the cylinder bores for B/C gap and were they all .003"?

Bottom line is simple. If you send a firearm into S&W or any other manufacturer for work, warranty or otherwise and they find something they don't think is in spec, or has been altered or modified, the offending part will be replaced. When this has happened to me I always received the replaced parts back with the firearm. It has been done that way for a long time. Calling someone a "monkey on the floor" is uncalled for and shows complete distain for people that I am sure do the best job they can under trying circumstances. That was a rude and extremely crude remark that just shows the true colors of the OP. A really great sports caster lost his job calling someone a monkey once and he deserved to loose it.

Rick H.

For some who are wanting tight cylinder tolerances I bet you'd love Dan Wesson revolvers

Wow !

5 pages about work done on a gun he hasn't seen yet. Based on an email and a phone call . Can't we get back to what is the best gun for bear defense.

Would not be surprised if the OP never returns....

BE Mike said:

They'll always put a gun sent to them back to original specs. They've been doing it for as long as I can remember. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. If I were you I wouldn't send it back to S&W to "fix" the problem. I'd contact a well-known private gunsmith and have him do what you want.

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Yeah, like their 'original specs' for clocking a barrel are +/- 5 degrees.

GnarlsR2 said:

This is just my perspective on who touches my firearms…

This unfortunate experience should be a hot tip for others who may not know about the posts here about S&W’s failures to properly service a firearm under warranty or as a Performance Center modification. Reading about a "complaint", valid or not, is still educational.

For me, a much safer option would be to find a very reputable gunsmith who is very familiar with that gun and have a face to face discussion about what should be done and what should NOT be done.

As I’ve gotten older (now age 78), I’ve learned that I have to be the one to manage ALL things in my life. Trusting others to do their job or presume their expertise is dicey. Because I do research, I ask a lot of questions, make notes, and do my best to carefully make my decisions.

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This has been getting worse and worse as the decades have gone by. There have always been incompetants, but it's more the rule than the exception now.

Does anyone else feel that the OP, just an imperfect human being, has been vilified, maligned, denigrated and disparaged enough by the self-righteous, mean-spirited, know-it-all, hypocrites?

walkin' trails said:

After I had to send my 43C back to warranty three times last year to finally get it working right, or so it’s seems, not sure I’d let them touch anything custom. I have three Ks that have trigger jobs similar to what your described. Never had issues with misfires loosing strain screws. They will not go back to the factory as I do t want to have to repeat trigger jobs similar

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Brownie0486 said:

I had a Smith Victory come into the shop where the threaded part of the upper/barrel had snapped off due to being over tightened enough to break it. Told him I'd give him 75.00 for it as is. He took the money, I called smith for a return label that afternoon.

Got it shipped back to them and they sent it back with a brand new upper, had cleaned it as well. It came back as new and has run 1k's of rounds through it since. Guns worth about 350.00.

Years back I had an M1a with wood stock that had a small crack in it. Called Smith and they were willing to send me another one for free. Asked if I could get a fiberglass stock as a replacement instead, they shipped it out the next day, no charge.

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I guess I'm confused.... I didn't realize S&W made M1A's, or did you mean Springfield Armory offered the replacement stock?

Blain said:

I found a nice 3-5-7 series 5" 686 at a local gunstore. Super smooth and light trigger (~7lbs double action) and tiiiight .003 cylinder gap. Was getting really high velocity numbera with this tight of a gap. Was a REALLY nice gun. Shot great and had no issues ignighting primers as long as I kept the strain screw tightened.

Only issue is, gun was shooting much too low. Had to ramp the rear sight up signifigantly (~2/3rds the way up). The front sight on it was much too tall (had the taller 4" front sight insted of the shorter 6").

I sent it in to S&W and asked them to swap out the too tall front sight with a shorter 6" front sight. Got an email back that the gun is on the way back, called in to confirm what they did to gun....was HORRIFIED!!!!

I was told that they....

1.) "Adjusted the barrel and the yoke / crane" (F'd up my cylinder gap)

And

2.) Replaced the mainspring (F'd up my niiiice trigger).

When asked why they did all that instead of just swapping out the front sight, I was told that,

"They must have figured it was a barrel alignment issue and not a sight issue so they realigned the barrel and reset the crane / yoke."

Was also told that they likely swapped out the mainspring for similar reasons "to bring it back to factory specs" (likely had a FTF so instead of tightning the strain screw they just fudgeed my trigger pull and doubled it).

What's worse is this "repair work" wasn't done by the performance center but by the monkeys on the floor / general assembly line. So it REALLY got butchered by people who don't care / don't know what they're doing.

I'M PISSED NOW!!!!!!


They took a near PERFECT revolver and RUINED it!!!!!

I will send it back and demand that the perfornance center fix what was butchered!!!!

Click to expand...

So, does the gun now shoot to the sights without having to jack up the rear sight?
It should be no surprise that they returned the trigger pull weights to factory specs because gun manufacturers get sued all the time over accidental (and even intentional) shootings.
No way are they going to set your gun up with a 7 pound DA trigger. You can forget about that right now.
While I have my own complaints about S&W’s QC issues over the last 20 years, I think you are overreacting prematurely. You don’t even have the gun back yet and you are already crapping your pants. Take a few deep breaths.
There will be plenty of time to get wrapped around the axle after you get the gun back if necessary.
Even a 0.004” to 0.005” BC gap is just fine in the real world.
Lighten up, man!

#133 and counting. Wonder if OP regrets title? Lotta experience/opinions expressed. My take away is S&W has rules when forearms are returned. S&W has their detractors as any company but learned it's on us to know their procedures. This has enlightened us to that. Bet OP is red faced when reading and curses responders for their blunt honesty. Lessons learned.

BSA1 said:

Since the gun O.P. purchased was used it seems probable someone had worked on the action to smooth and lighten the trigger pull. This opens a whole can of worms about how well the work was done. While he says the double action trigger pull was 7# he doesn’t say what the single action trigger pull was.

He also doesn’t say if the hammer could be pushed off when it was cocked for single action. I am sure other Forum members as well as myself have encountered light trigger pulls that actually made the gun unsafe to shoot.

Since someone had worked on the action is it possible the same someone had also replaced the original front sight with a higher one?

As for the .003” b/c gap he must not shoot very many rounds before needing to clean the front of the cylinder

Methinks someone is complaining way to much or just trying to stir up hate towards S&W.

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I'm not even sure the sight was replaced. He mentions having to adjust the sight 2/3rds of the way up... IMO having to adjust an adjustable sight on a used gun is not a condition that dictates the gun needs to be sent off for repair.

Me personally I have never had any issues with S&W they have always been polite and helpful. I am a long time collector/shooter.

This post is better than who shot JR ,I cant wait to tune in for the next episode.
I do my share of dumb stuff but even I know not to send a gun in with aftermarket or bubba gunsmithing and expect the factory not to return it with factory specs,Hell they even tell you that.

Friendofbillw1 said:

Me personally I have never had any issues with S&W they have always been polite and helpful. I am a long time collector/shooter.

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As I mentioned in one of the lost posts in this thread.
You get much further with sugar when dealing with manufacturers.

My experience with S&W has always been stellar, but I am always polite and never demanded anything.

My latest warranty work was on a 625-8 bought used and I told S&W that when requesting service. They did exactly what was requested and in a very reasonable time-frame. No charge. No complaints.

Nonsense like this is exactly what motivated me to buy tools and learn to do the work myself. Care has gone off a cliff and the communication tax between human beings seems to be at record highs. Good luck getting anything you ask for from a customer service department. This NOT how things SHOULD work.

How is it on one hand, Smith and Wesson can make a good gun,
But on the other hand, they can’t be trusted to fix it? Makes no sense to me.

Blane do you even have a chronograph?

Anyone who has chronographed a lot of ammo will tell you that there are a lot of variables involved. BC gap is just one of them. By the way, for whatever reason, the new Smiths that I bought, shoot a little faster than their older counterparts.

growr said:

Would not be surprised if the OP never returns....

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I agree growr. The OP has been kicked around pretty hard on the thread. With all of this talk about the gun. I was hoping to hear what he gets back. But alas, I don't see that coming any time soon, if ever. Disappointing.

I haven't dealt with S&W customer service but I have needed help with a Walther PPK/s .22 and they were wonderful. Helped me with procedures to return the gun to the factory. And kept me up to date on progress. Gun came back in 10 days, door to door. Repairs were perfect.

All of my many S&W firearms have been perfect right out of the box so they do have some very good folks on the manufacturing floor. I do have new and very old. Quality has been top notch for all, in my opinion.

I am still bummed that I probably will never find out who shot JR lol as "Bigduck" mentioned.

GnarlsR2 said:

Does anyone else feel that the OP, just an imperfect human being, has been vilified, maligned, denigrated and disparaged enough by the self-righteous, mean-spirited, know-it-all, hypocrites?

Click to expand...

I think it’s somewhat overboard. Just life on the forum.

SW1066 said:

I guess I'm confused.... I didn't realize S&W made M1A's, or did you mean Springfield Armory offered the replacement stock?

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You're right, that was SA, not smith. The mind is a terrible thing to waste. Good catch, thanks.

SA has been stellar as well as Smith when I had an issue with one of their firearms.

I just got the gun back. Instead of replacing the front sight with a shorter one, as requested, they put a taller rear sight on it (but didn't mention that work in the notes). The rear sight they replaced was the .160 height, I didn't even know they had a rear sight taller than that! (Attached a pic of the new taller rear sighr next to a standard .160 height sight on another 686 I have).

I don't know if they discarded my note, but I said I wanted the shorter front sight from the 6" on it. The notes on the repair sheet just said "gun shooting a few inches off". I would rather have a shorter front sight than taller front and rear sights (lower profile).

Barrel cylinder gap. From the left (cylinder release side) it is gauging around ~ .0035 to .004. From the right side it is gauging between .045 and .006 (depending on what chamber it is for each). Larger but not a huge difference, I'll chrony it when I get to the range and see if there are any velocity differences.

Trigger wise, they removed and returned 2 springs. Double action pull isn't as light as the ~8lbs before but is actually pretty decent for a factory trigger. Aound 11lbs and very smooth, stages very nicely (I think the prior owner must have had trigger work done to it more than just the springs. Likely polished, etc. as the DA pull is still much nicer than my other 686s). Pull weight is around 3.75lbs single action (was at or just under 3lbs prior).

I plan to shoot it tomorrow to test POI and velocity.

Range report hopefully tomorrow.

Blain said:

I just got the gun back. Instead of replacing the front sight with a shorter one, as requested, they put a taller rear sight on it (but didn't mention that work in the notes). The rear sight they replaced was the .160 height, I didn't even know they had a rear sight taller than that! (Attached a pic of the new taller rear sighr next to a standard .160 height sight on another 686 I have).

I don't know if they discarded my note, but I said I wanted the shorter front sight from the 6" on it. The notes on the repair sheet just said "gun shooting a few inches off". I would rather have a shorter front sight than taller front and rear sights (lower profile).

Barrel cylinder gap. From the left (cylinder release side) it is gauging around ~ .0035 to .004. From the right side it is gauging between .045 and .006 (depending on what chamber it is for each). Larger but not a huge difference, I'll chrony it when I get to the range and see if there are any velocity differences.

Trigger wise, they removed and returned 2 springs. Double action pull isn't as light as the ~8lbs before but is actually pretty decent for a factory trigger. Aound 11lbs and very smooth, stages very nicely (I think the prior owner must have had trigger work done to it more than just the springs. Likely polished, etc. as the DA pull is still much nicer than my other 686s). Pull weight is around 3.75lbs single action (was at or just under 3lbs prior).

I plan to shoot it tomorrow to test POI and velocity.

Range report hopefully tomorrow.

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"From the left (cylinder release side) it is gauging around ~ .0035 to .004. From the right side it is gauging between .045 and .006 (depending on what chamber it is for each). Larger but not a huge difference,"

So the variance of ~ 0.0025” between the left side and the right side is considered an “acceptable” tolerance?

@OP,

Hold my beer...

S&W returned my BG-38 in the condition below (it was pristine when I sent it in), it got sent back again to refinish it after their Samsonite department got a hold of it. The cylinder was also dinged up as well as the other side of the revolver.



Soon after I traded it towards an LCRx since the trigger kept locking up on me previously, I only wanted it to be reliable as I'd do the breaking in

Both you guys need to quit leaving zeros off of your measurements. Looks to me like a possible .002” difference side to side. Pretty tough to measure half thousandths accurately without some serious tools. And if half a thou bothers you, you may never be happy.

Some folks need to remember that S&W is in business to manufacture a product to sell at a profit. They back their product with a warranty but they are not a custom shop. They realized in the 30s with the Registered Magnum that it would be a sure path to financial ruin. I would imagine that most here paid many times over the price of a new S&W for their car. Anybody measure the door gaps with a feeler gauge and return the car if the front door gap is .0025 larger than the rear? Realistic expectations will help prevent disappointment.

@Blain Thanks for the update. Sounds like you still have a wonderful revolver to enjoy.