What load are you using in your 38 snub?

I bought a Model 60 for our oldest daughter. She was living by herself in a big city and there was a serial killer running amok. She wanted a gun, so I bought her one but I wouldn't let her have it until she let me teach her the minimum about guns.

She wasn't interested in doing that and eventually moved out of that city, so she never got the gun. I'm stuck with it.

The load I was going to give her to use with it was a .38 Special, 148 gr wadcutter loaded to ~700 fps. But she never shot a single round out of it, so that was a big waste of money.

JH1961 said:

When in college, I shot one of my grandmother's roosters (she told me to!) using my granddad's Model 36 and 158gr LRN. The sights were centered on its chest at 10 feet. At the shot, it ran off. I found it 20 minutes later. Skinning it showed a perfectly centered shot. The bullet exited its back, just missing its spine. The heart was 'ripped open'. Not too impressive. LRN is only good for PRACTICE.

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I’m not sure if that was a fair test.

If you aren’t already familiar with “Mike the Headless Chicken” a quick Google search will provide info on how durable these critters can be.

A variation of the "FBI" load, sometimes called the "Chicago" load. 158 GR SWC, not HP. I suspect that the HP variation has never expanded well from a 2" barrel. From a 3" barrel and up, I would use the +P version (too much flash from a 2". Just my HO, YMMV.

elm_creek_smith said:

I found one (1) box of Federal HST +P and have nine (9) rounds left. Can anyone tell me if they are still making them?

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They've been discontinued. I was lucky enough to pick up several boxes on clearance when Walmart was stopping their sales of handgun ammo and put them on clearance.

Magtech 148gr WC backed up by Winchester 110gr Silvertip.

Rammer Jammer said:

They've been discontinued. I was lucky enough to pick up several boxes on clearance when Walmart was stopping their sales of handgun ammo and put them on clearance.

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I've got a box, only shot test medium with it (water, 10% synthetic gel, and wet newsprint) - it did not expand in any of my 2" guns - it did tumble.

It did not penetrate well enough to suit me but it might other people.

Riposte

jakeintexas said:

FWIW I wouldn’t get too wrapped up looking for a ‘perfect’ snubby load.

The late Paul Herrell had a good video on snub loads and that chasing something ‘perfect’ was probably wasted effort.

Everything that happens depends on what and where the bullet hits and other than shot placement once it hits everything goes random. Lest one forgets an unaimed point shot with a LRN at very close range by Jack Ruby hit Oswald with pretty quick incapacitation and bounced around enough to hit and tear up just about every major organ (including the aorta) in the process.

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If memory serves, having seen it as it happened, Jack Ruby was gut-shot from about 12-18" away. Kind'a hard to miss from that distance, even if you're sloppy about it.

REParker said:

If memory serves, having seen it as it happened, Jack Ruby was gut-shot from about 12-18" away. Kind'a hard to miss from that distance, even if you're sloppy about it.

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It was very close range but I don’t know that it was that close. A few feet perhaps. The LRN pin balled around inside of Oswald hitting most every vital organ in the process.

One shot.

GD +P 135gr

cp1969 said:

I bought a Model 60 for our oldest daughter. She was living by herself in a big city and there was a serial killer running amok. She wanted a gun, so I bought her one but I wouldn't let her have it until she let me teach her the minimum about guns.

She wasn't interested in doing that and eventually moved out of that city, so she never got the gun. I'm stuck with it.

The load I was going to give her to use with it was a .38 Special, 148 gr wadcutter loaded to ~700 fps. But she never shot a single round out of it, so that was a big waste of money.

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Man, this is a sad story. Sorry, buddy.

I've been a regular 38 snub toter for years now, and I've bounced between several SD ammo choices a number of times. Off the top of my head, the short list includes an old box of the fabled Federal 158gr SWC ( dont even recall where i got those), some Gold Dots, Winchester Ranger +P+, Remington +P jhp, Winchester Silvertips, and I'm currently loaded with some Hornady Critical-something-or-others.
Out of a give-or-take 2" barrel, I'm not as much concerned with having the latest-greatest, round-de-jour......just that they reliably go "bang". Despite any YouTube tests, any given round is gonna do whatever the hell it wants.
As with so much else we all tend to obsess over, this issue is given WAY too much time and attention.
JMHO, YMMV, yadda, yadda, yadda...........

Frailer said:

I’m not sure if that was a fair test.

If you aren’t already familiar with “Mike the Headless Chicken” a quick Google search will provide info on how durable these critters can be.

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That's right...they can run for a good distance with no head at all. I've always wondered how they can run with no balance system (if it's still in the head that's been lopped off).

I guess I'm the young kid with the newfangled gadgetry on this one. I'm running 140 grain LeHigh Deep Penetrators over a charge of 5.8 grains of Unique. I don't know if they hold magic or not, but they do look like they'd cut a heckuva hole, so at worst they'd behave alot like a SWC. A few months ago I shot a moose with it's back legs broken with it. Moose was very dead instantly, though there was no pass through on a head shot.

jakeintexas said:

It was very close range but I don’t know that it was that close. A few feet perhaps. The LRN pin balled around inside of Oswald hitting most every vital organ in the process.

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Let's see...
Video

Edit: Having viewed this video link now (I wanted to get it posted and didn't view it beforehand), I see someone beat me to the punch with the image, but the video confirms the "one shot" aspect. Still, given the bullet technology in 1963, one LRN .38 certainly seems to have done the trick. Personally, I still fall back on the premise that, pretty much, nobody wants to be shot with nothin'!

Lee C358-158-SWC-HP and 5 gr. of Unique

I've watched and read much on 38 snub gun loads, lots of variety as you'd expect. We see some that expand with good or bad penetration, some the penetrate no expansion and the ones that are supposed to do both but may end up tumbling.

Question of the day is do the ammo types that tumble do a decent job in lieu of expansion? I know Paul Harrell thought the 158 RNL might be a fair number to use in a 2" barrel as it tumbled well in his meat target and others have shown it to work in gel very similarly.

I'm also putting in the disclaimer that as much as I'd like to see the high 90 percent expand/penetrate/ do the job load it might take more than one to do it if the first doesn't take care of it. I think that is something overlooked with all defensive handgun rounds.

30calflash said:

I've watched and read much on 38 snub gun loads, lots of variety as you'd expect. We see some that expand with good or bad penetration, some the penetrate no expansion and the ones that are supposed to do both but may end up tumbling.

Question of the day is do the ammo types that tumble do a decent job in lieu of expansion? I know Paul Harrell thought the 158 RNL might be a fair number to use in a 2" barrel as it tumbled well in his meat target and others have shown it to work in gel very similarly.

I'm also putting in the disclaimer that as much as I'd like to see the high 90 percent expand/penetrate/ do the job load it might take more than one to do it if the first doesn't take care of it. I think that is something overlooked with all defensive handgun rounds.

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Exactly. As an actual gunfight survivor, I can tell you that the impulse I felt was to keep shooting until the threat is negated. Worked for me.

In my younger LE years (80's) I carried whatever I could find on the shelves, but preferred 158gr LSWCHP +P. I also carried the original Federal Nyclad 125gr standard pressure and 125gr +P loads, and their 158gr Nyclad SWCHP +P. I even tried the Winchester 147gr +P JHP. I still have a couple boxes (give or take) of the Fed Nyclad 158gr +P and W-W 147gr +P in amongst my old ammo. I eventually settled on the Rem version of their 158gr LHP +P, after being told that the CA state ammo contract testing of the time showed it might expand from a short barrel. I think I still have a couple boxes of that, too.

As the 2000's rolled along I was shifting from using the older 158gr lead HP's to some of the newer JHP's being refined to perform from short barrels. After seeing how the Rem 125gr BJHP/HPJ (GS) +P, the then-new Speer 135gr GDHP +P and the Win 130 RA38B +P (bonded PDX1) did in some gel testing, I settled on those for my +P capable Airweights and .357 M&P 340's.

I picked up a nifty 37DAO, built on the older Airweight 37-2 frame for a canceled overseas police contract run, and I limited the ammo used in it to only standard pressure. I used Fed 110gr Hydra-Shok and Win 110gr STHP, and hoped for the best. I eventually settled on the Hornady standard pressure 110gr FTX Critical Defense, as it was a surprising tack-driver in my snub, in my hands.

I'm still using all of those loads in my J's.

FWIW, this is a small screen shot of some of the original Speer Tech Data Package in 2003 that was available online many years ago, when they were first developing the 135gr GDHP for their new +P load made for use by NYPD for their approved J-frames. They designed the then-new 135gr GDHP because they decided the existing 125gr GDHP bullet couldn't be made to meet the performance objectives of their LE customer.


This screenshot was comparing how the new .38SPL GDHP load compared to the existing 124gr +P GDHP 9mm load used by NYPD.


Also FWIW, when the 135gr +P load was still new (before it was called Short Barrel), I saw some tested at a hosted gel shoot, fired from a borrowed M&P 360 snub. The organic gel block had been sitting in the sun for the afternoon, and had been used for other 'test shots', so it wasn't like it had been earlier when taken from the mobile gel lab refrigerated trailer and checked with a BB shot for 'calibration'. It was a 4LD test shot, though, and the fired rounds all reached just short of 11" in those conditions. The owner of the M&P 360 had been carrying Rem 125gr GS +P, and he wanted to test those, which was done after the new Speer loads had been fired. The grungy and tarnished 125gr +P GS hollowpoints performed virtually identical to the Speer GDHP in that 4LD gel block.

Once my agency started stocking our range ammo shelves with both the new Speer 135gr +P and the Rem 125gr +P, I started carrying whichever was available at the time. I added the Win RA38B later on, after seeing how it performed similarly in another hosted gel test, fired from a borrowed 642. When my agency started receiving it for range/off-duty use, I started using it for my range work. I also went to the local Win LE Distributor and bought a couple cases of it at individual officer pricing, which I think was $249.99 for a 500rd case. I still have a little less than a case of it left. The Win LE rep said that it was the same thing as the commercially packaged PDX1 130gr +P bonded .38SPL load, but packaged in 50rd boxes for LE sale/pricing.

Okay, I'm done revising the previous post.

Cant find a box of 135 grain speer gd's anywhere online at the moment. Everyone is out of stock.

sigp220.45 said:

Man, this is a sad story. Sorry, buddy.

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Hmmm. As it happens, my Model 60 is one of my favorite little sidearms! .38’s, 357’s, (choices!), no complaints, light to carry… uh, huh, I think I’ll keep her around. May even get a new holster for her!

Years ago I read an article about a 1950's load called the "38 special Super Police". It was apparently a standard pressure load a 200 gr "blunt" slug (think wadcutter with the edges radiused), probably around 650 - 700 fps. It was favored by detectives carrying 2" revolvers because it tumbled on impact. Not a barrier penetrator, and no expansion, but violent tumbling and therefore effective. I tried to buy some and found a boutique manufacturer of old and odd ammo, which went out of business before I made a purchase. Anyone know where I can get something like this now? Currently using BB and Underwood 148-150 gr wadcutters which reputedly drill and cut but not tumble.

Brownie0486 said:

Cant find a box of 135 grain speer gd's anywhere online at the moment. Everyone is out of stock.

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I searched and couldn't find any either.

This load was developed as a competitor to the GDSB load. I haven't tried it, but use his .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, and .44 Special loads when I carry revolvers chambered for those cartridges. I'd be comfortable using his .38 +P 140-grain load if I were out of the GDSB load.

Pointblank2U said:

View attachment 897946

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Ditto here—I just need to punch a hole(s) that won’t close up after entry, not turn inside out and and have the bad guy do a back-flip…
Plus, my own recovery time for second or more shots is better with these guys—the report won’t break windows, nor with the flash blind me in a low-light situ. Lots of pluses with this load. My speed loaders are loaded with pointy-and-potent Federal stuff, mostly for ease of a reload, if needed.

Tubatoad said:

Years ago I read an article about a 1950's load called the "38 special Super Police". It was apparently a standard pressure load a 200 gr "blunt" slug (think wadcutter with the edges radiused), probably around 650 - 700 fps. It was favored by detectives carrying 2" revolvers because it tumbled on impact. Not a barrier penetrator, and no expansion, but violent tumbling and therefore effective. I tried to buy some and found a boutique manufacturer of old and odd ammo, which went out of business before I made a purchase. Anyone know where I can get something like this now? Currently using BB and Underwood 148-150 gr wadcutters which reputedly drill and cut but not tumble.

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I have a couple of old boxes of that. While I haven't chronographed it I would not be at all suprised to find your figures spot on.

While I like heavy bullets, I don't like 700 fps. I once bought 1000 Winchester Lubaloy bullets for reloading. I loaded them to 825 fps in my M-36 1 7/8" and just over 850 fps in my 3" (I think that is a +P pressure range load and I don't shoot it in light weights).

I drilled the nose with a #2 center drill (think the cavity in a Silvertip) and it worked well in test medium and the one critter I shot with it (a 'possum)

I usually only carry factory ammo for self defense but for me the .38/.357 is only for backup.

Riposte

Rpg said:

I’m not a fan of high priced specialty ammo. I much prefer standard velocity target wadcutter ammo. You can fool yourself with specialty ammo, but in a short barreled revolver you’re only adding to the ammo manufacturers profits, not buying anything that’s going to make a difference in the field. This is the ammo that’s easiest to shoot and hit with in a snub. Those are the most importantly features of the ammo I use.

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Well said
I learned from the three prior generations of my family that all that stuff is high priced fluff in a fancy box. You end up with no practical benefit, only less money in your pocket but more flash, blast, and recoil in your hand. I use plain old 158gr LRN in my all steel guns and 148gr WC in my lightweights.

30calflash said:

I've watched and read much on 38 snub gun loads, lots of variety as you'd expect. We see some that expand with good or bad penetration, some the penetrate no expansion and the ones that are supposed to do both but may end up tumbling.

Question of the day is do the ammo types that tumble do a decent job in lieu of expansion? I know Paul Harrell thought the 158 RNL might be a fair number to use in a 2" barrel as it tumbled well in his meat target and others have shown it to work in gel very similarly.

I'm also putting in the disclaimer that as much as I'd like to see the high 90 percent expand/penetrate/ do the job load it might take more than one to do it if the first doesn't take care of it. I think that is something overlooked with all defensive handgun rounds.

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If I were to take one overriding attribute of any bullet it’d be adequate penetration to be able to get to something important in whatever threat I’m shooting.

There’s no shortage of test data from the FBI through various barriers at different angles into gel of different cartridges and bullet types. Or on the internet of gel tests (or other simulation media). And there’s plenty of anecdotal (and some real but it’s hard to get to) results of a given bullet type in the field.

Problem is all of the tests are canned tests into simulation media. They can provide useful information in a general way when one’s making a choice of what seems to work well but none of them replicate what’s actually going to happen when a shot a person takes hits flesh and bone. Most of that depending on where and how it hits with bullets doing wholly unpredictable things sometimes.

So don’t get too wrapped up over it and make a choice you’re comfortable with and can shoot well. And practice. A lot.

I’d be more concerned with what’s happening at the other end of the barrel. What can YOU shoot well. Can you tolerate the recoil, blast, and flash of whatever it is you’re shooting ? Can you make decent follow up shots ? What happens when you shoot your carry ammo in low light (which is probably the most likely scenario) ? Would touching off one round flash blind you for several seconds or can you continue to effectively fight and shoot ?

The standard rounds that tend to tumble seem to penetrate well in what I've seen info on.

Another thing, does the somewhat slower twist rate on 1 in 18 3/4" twist help with the old school rounds tending to tumble? Between that and the lower velocity from a 2" barrel, possible less stabilized, cause it to act in this manner? Did Smith and Wesson actually design it to work this way? Hmmm.....