I'm getting ready to run a batch of .45acp with 200gn Hornady XTP JHP over 6.5gn Unique.

I was looking at the xtp and had a box of copper BB's sitting nearby. Wadda ya know the BB fits right in the
hollow. Put it in the vice and seat it to flush depth.

I've seen other Mfg. ammo with the polymer tips. What do you guys think of the 5gn BB idea?

I assume it would help with both penetration as well as expansion.

What say you?

At the MV of a 45acp, I doubt you will see any difference. You can always load a mag full first and shoot something and see!

I guess it depends on what your intended application will be.

I hate to be the first to say it, but this is one of those areas that is probably, in part, the crux of the "factory vs. handloaded" personal defense ammo issue (besides the more recent ballistics testing used to establish distance argument). It is a non-standard load that is specifically modified and ostensibly designed to inflict a greater wound than standard factory ammo, not that most well designed factory ammo isn't already capable of that. It may be viewed in the same category as filling hollowpoints with mercury, turning HBWCs backwards, dipping bullets in garlic, "dum-dums" of WWII era, etc. While 'a good shoot is a good shoot' likely applies even with such ammo to clear any homicide issues from a criminal law perspective, the ensuing civil suit may likely be more difficult.

In saying this, I am not discounting carrying handloaded ammo for defensive purposes. I am in the camp of having confidence in using handloaded ammo for defensive carry. But mine is loaded with factory components to factory ballistics specifications, without extreme modification. The exception would be a situation where I had hunting or field carry (e.g. "bear load") ammo because that was an activity I was doing, and it is usually only loaded to higher velocity levels.

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" I said, good DAY! "

How about the one where you put a wooden match head in there and have a tracer?

It has been done before. I recall reading somewhere that some manufacturer did something similar with rifle ammunition back in the early part of the 20th century. Apparently it did not offer any particular advantage or it would have been continued, but I cannot remember the details.

Actually the idea is quite old, with screws and ball bearings both being used at times. One of the larger ammo makers is/was making a .25acp load similar with a small steel ball in the nose to help with expansion.

With your .45ACP rounds you would probably be far better off without the BB in the hollow point. It is much better to fill it with a compressable material such as a polymer or human tissue. The copper or zinc coated steel BB will probably clog the cavity and prevent it from expanding.

However if you are willing to give it a try, I'd love to hear to results of any testing. It could save me some time down the road.

I agree with most of the above.It's a very old idea that's been done with a variety of styles and materials.It might be an interesting experiment however I question whether or not it has any practical advantage over standard ammo.

Has anyone tried filling the cavity with wax, Alox, or another expandable solid to see how it effects expansion? It would keep the cavity from being clogged with tissue, drywall, clothing, etc.

That's a good point re the newer polymer tip bullets striving to do the same.

bob

Jellybean, the .25acp load you're talking about is Winchester 45gr Expanding Point. Winchester has stated in the past that the pellet in the nose is for reliable feeding. It actually has very little to do with expansion.

I recall amusing myself for a short period of time stuffing small pistol primers into the openings of .429" Remington 240 grain JHP's of the era. Never found my self with those handloads and a beef bottom round roast together at the same place and time to try them on though?

Thanks for all the input. I'll let you know the test results.

Called the 'Hoxie Bullet' by the same company (Chicago) around 100 years ago. They loaded center fire rifle ammo with a small round steel ball in the nose of the bullet.

Their design had a cavity shaped like a cone with a space remaining below the steel ball so it could be more easily driven deeper into the bullet on impact. The idea was to better expand the nose of the bullet as it was pushed deeper.

shaggist wrote:
Yes, There has been a whole slew of better ideas, none of which were reliable. Bullets need a certain amount of energy to make them expand, and it depends on their construction, ie. hollow point, soft point, jacketed, lead and etc, how much they will need. Even if you put something in the nose that is supposed to push the sides out to start expansion you still need sufficient energy to keep it going.

Hollow points often fail if the nose is filled with heavy clothing, but how much does the heavy clothing affect the bullets velocity before it hits tissue? And what shape does the clothing take at the point of impact compared to uncovered tissue. From observations I've noticed during shooting this has a lot to do with bullet expansion and it's final shape.

Grayfox wrote:
I'm not going to doubt your statement, however I do doubt Winchesters, having read their ads and magazine articles when it was introduced. As I recall they specifically stated the ball was supposed to help with expansion in the little bullets, and that's probably why they called it "expanding point" instead of 'feeding point'. Especially since they didn't make it in any other auto calibers.

Do you add butter and a little Italian seasoning too?

I'm hungry now.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

Here you go - the Hoxie Bullet:

A Cartridge Collector's Glossary

A bit of drift - the DumDum bullet originated at the British arsenal of the same name in Calcutta, in the late 19th century.

That was back when there existed a British Empire and its soldiers were allowed to have guns and pointy objects...

Have experimented with filling 45 acp hollow points with a form of silicone, a non expanding fluid. This was in a 45 acp. It lowered the velocity at which expansion occured almost 100 fps. It made for more reliable expansion, in the moist sand used as a testing medium. The affects were noticable and replicable. The silicone was filled level with the flat tip of the hollow points.

Sounds interesting, Zeke. Do you have further details? Was it like silicone caulk?

Here is a pic of the finished result next to some 230gn plain XTP's.

gwalchmai-It was a clear RTV silicone adhesive sealant. Basically what i had on hand. Not an original idea, but wanted to try it because had developed a liking for 3 in 45 acp semi's, and most loads had iffy expansion from the short tube. Was using packed moist sand as testing medium, all very un-scientific like. Even the Ranger 230 gn plus p had unreliable expansion in that medium.

Tried all the major 230 gn jhp's (handloads), favored the 230 xtp. Also tried it in the Federal 158 plus p nyclads.

It ain't majic, but it works. Tried it in a plus p velocity 230 speer gdhp (bullet tempered in oven at 350 degrees for 1 hour) from 5 in tube. Got the bullet to expand to 1 in, which was interested but didn't want that much expansion.

Well, that IS interesting. I think I'll try some similar research. Thanks!

It would be said. I understand your logic. I'm of the opinion that "an arrow is an arrow, a spear is a spear, a knife is a knife and a projectile from a gun is a projectile."