I know right where the article is, and I'll dig it out later on today.

Don

I am not up to date on what the 458 will do with newer powders. If you can safely get a 500 grain bullet up to about 2150- 2200 fps it would perform well on the largest game animals.

If I were looking for a 458 caliber I would probably go for one based on a full length 375 case as pressure will probably be lower under some African hunting conditions this could be a factor.

It has been my experience if you want to be in control of a situation when things go bad you want something that will penetrate fully and drill as straight of a hole as possible. Bullet construction and design is also critical and experience has shown that a blunt nose will drill straighter hole than a round nose that can more easily be be steered off course.

Len

No surprises, the .500 Linebaugh (which cannot equal the .500 S&W velocity wise) penetrated 57" of paper, an inch more than the .600 NE. The big revolvers can do a lot of damage.

There is an aspect of big revolver penetration that I have never heard an adequate explantion of. Frequently, big heavy slugs will penetrate as much or more at lower velocities even though when hard enough Brinnel wise, the same slugs at higher velocities don't deform much and penetrate less. Strange. Don

Don't doubt that this might be a prudent outlook. Don

Don, I am no ballistician, but I have played around enough over the years to pick up on a few things. I believe that the phenomena you are talking about has something to do with the fact that once a bullet reaches certain speeds, it simply can't push whatever medium it is going through aside quik enough to acheive maximum penetration, before running out of steam.


I posted the above link because in one of your ealier posts you had remarked about a .500 S&W penetrating on buff, but thought the .458 could do as well. It doesn't always work out that way.

The .500 Linebaugh may have just the right balance of bullet weight and velocity to reach maximum penetration in .50 cal.

If you read the whole thing, you'll see that with it's best load, the .475 Linebaugh outpenetrated the .500 Linebaugh even, and by a noticable amount. There's a happy medium in there somewhere. It's too bad we can't all shoot enough ammo, at enough real game, enough times, to be more authoratative in our recomendations to those who ask for advice.

canoe-
Here is what is listed in the article. I was off on the energy listed in this article as being 10,000 ft lbs. I haven't read it for quite a while and was going off memory. (not a good idea apparently) The 10,000 ft lb figure came from an article by Ross Seyfried on the 585 Nyati that he designed, and wrote up in the G&A, December 1991 issue.

600 grian Barnes soft nose
152 grains of IMR 4831
instrumental velocity=2578 fps.
ft lbs of energy=7500

700 grain Barnes soft nose
132 grains of IMR 4831
instrumental velocity=2260 fps
ft lbs of energy=8400

The above loads are listed on page 100 of the February issue, 1989 Guns and Ammo. The standard factory loading for the Gibbs was a 525 grain bullet at 2300 fps.

I suspect that is a good explanation.

Regardless of the explanation, one thing is certain, the big revolvers are impressive performers. Don

Gentlemen,

Being a forum that leans very strongly towards handgun use and also where there is a strong affection for 45/70 class rifles,it seems almost inevitable that this would happen.

There is no doubt that Garrett and Linebaugh have a big following and any criticism of them is likely to be received very poorly.I personally have a big issue with their testing methods as well as their agenda.The last thing I want is for this to evolve into a debate/argument over that and so will comment no more about it.

This is not meant to anger anyone.I would simply like to ask that the issue of heavy rifles remain a discussion about heavy rifles.Big handguns are not without merit but should be discussed seperately.I have no control over anything anyone posts but simply ask that you do this out of courtesy to me.Thank you.

canoe-

Maybe you missed my point with the link. Linebaugh tests a lot of heavy rifles along with the handguns, and they are shown in those tests. He himself, never claimed them to be scientific. Just an interesting comparison between many different rounds, when fired at the exact same medium.

The fact that men I respect particpated in the test goes a long way with me. John Taffin is first to mind.

The tests themselves show what one can expect, at least to some degree, from the heavy rifle. The fact that a similar caliber handgun firing a similar weight bullet, can penetrate as well or better than many heavy rifles, paralells what the .458 can, or might do, when compared to other large bore rifles, when caliber, bullet weight and design etc., are all taken into consideration.

I have no desire to redirect the conversation of this thread, so I will comment no further in it.

I apologize if you feel we may have caused any thread drift.

I reload .416 Rigby, .458 Lott and just started loading .460 S&W Mag. Big bores should come with a warning about being very addictive.

I handload for a Ruger #1 in 600 Nitro Express.

I've loaded the 458 & the 460.
The 460 with 110g of 4350 & a 500g bullet duplicates the factory trajectory at 100 yds. so I was very satisfied.
I've loaded a 600g Barnes in it - forgot the powder charge but it DEFINITELY gets your attention off hand in the recoil department!
I have the 505 Gibbs but I've stuck with factory ammo bought years ago.
I wasn't quite ready to commit to custom dies at the time.

c/0 post #8
375 with 134 Grs of powder...............

A pound of powder will give 52 loads if you don't spill any !!

A far cry from my 22-250 at ............ 225 loads, with spills.

Let me say the previous reports mentioned in this thread are flawed because of methodology used.

Penetration is not just about mass but equally or more important is the nose profile and lesser degree construction.
Penetration is also a poor measure of terminal performance.

Where penetration is used Comparing bullets based on weight is off little value if the bullet shape is different and construction allows for a different deformations.

Perception and not fact based.

The surface area of the nose and the profile effect the friction imposed on the bullet. These work to slow the bullet, if there is deformation then the penetration is further impeded by increased friction.

Once the velocity is increased past the bullets construction to with stand deformation penetration is reduced.

This one of the major flaws in tests like those called out in previous test.


I find it interesting there is such a big interest in penetration as a measure of bullet performance, when in fact it is the bullet profile that determines the size of the wound channel along with velocity.

We only require enough penetration to deliver the bullet to the vitals.

Don't get me wrong my preference is to have two holes but it is not a requirement.

On the original topic , I load and use a variety of .458 caliber rifles, 458 SOCOM, 45-70, 458 Lott, 458 Mag, 458 B&M and 458 B&M SS. I only reload one .5 caliber currently the 500 Auto Max.

Although you don't consider the 45-70 a heavy I would say otherwise as would the elephants that have fallen to it.

Bullets are the cheapest part of any hunt, chose a bullet with good terminal performance.

__________________
be safe
Ruggy

Havent loaded for it yet but definitely intend to, 500 Nitro Express. I dont have powders or enough brass.

I would mention my 375 h&h Winchester, but I won't because it's such a light weight caliber.

And here I thought I was all set if we have an elephant problem here in California.

I currently load for my WR double in 450 3 1/4 NE, and a couple of heavy mediums.
In 1982 I bought my WR, the next show that dealer had an H&H 4 bore double (paper cartridge/hull, not brass) cased and complete with loading accessories; IN LIKE NEW CONDITION, only $60,000.00! I bought my farm the next year for $33,000.00 (BTW: 4 bore ammo was only $60 a round back then!) 450 3 1/4 NE Kynok was $25/5 for SP; $28/5 for FMJ.

Ivan

No longer load but have all records, 416 Rem Mag, 470 NE.

__________________
State of Jefferson
Jim

I dont qualify for large rifle, however I did load .375 H&H on my Dillon 550 while living in Alaska.Have the grizzly bear to prove it...LOL

__________________
The American dream is alive