Merry Christmas,
I finally found individual plug gauges. They are about $3 each and the shipping was very quick. So for $30, I have plug gauges for two calibers...finally.
I picked 10 gauges, five each for .44 and .45 calibers, all I need for now.
I bought the "M" or minus tolerance. See enclosed material. They are in .001 increments, which is good enough for my needs.
I believe that I can "guess" the diameter within 0.0005" by feeling the amount of "looseness" of fit.
Very nice polish; excellent and I'm highly satisfied. My i.d. calipers are decent for throat measurement, if the throats are polished, and I can get within one mil, but these new gauges are super.
I don't think they are available in 1/2 mil increments, which would be nice.

Carr Lane Mfg. Co., tooling components and toggle clamps Carr Lane Mfg. Co
314-647-6200 (no dog in this race) PLUG GAGES by Carr Lane out of St. Louis, Mo.
.001" Increments
For 4-place-decimal gages see:
Plug Gages–.0001" Increments

FEATURES: Durable, precision gage pins for production gaging. Plug Gages are hardened and cold stabilized. They are precision lapped to a 10-microinch surface finish, with ends ground square. Gage diameter is electro-etched on each pin. All gages are 2" long. Applications include checking hole sizes, measuring hole locations, measuring distance between holes, and checking slot sizes.

SIZES: Available from stock in any size from .011" to 1.000" in .001" increments. Specify either P (Plus) or M (Minus) tolerance when ordering. Example: CL-.018M
(.018" pin dia, Minus tolerance)

TOLERANCES: Standard tolerances for these production gages are +.0002/-.0000 (Plus) and +.0000/-.0002 (Minus), known as "Class ZZ". In most applications, GO gages should have a Plus tolerance and NO-GO gages should have a Minus tolerance. This keeps the gage's tolerance within the workpiece's tolerance at all times, and allows for wear of the GO gage.

SPECIALS: Plug Gages are readily available in .0001" increments, as specials. For reference gaging, Plug Gages are also available with "Class X" tolerances, +.00004/-.00000 (Plus) and +.00000/-.00004 (Minus).

MATERIAL: 52100 steel, heat treated Rc 60-62.



Buy yourself a Christmas present, or talk sweetly to your wife.
Sonny

Another great source is MSC. They are $2.90 each. Shipping is extremely fast.

PLUG/PIN GAGES - CLASS ZZ MINUS and other I.D. MEASUREMENT at MSCDirect.com

I going to play dumb here, but what do you use them for????????????

They are used to properly measure the size of the cylinder throats, in order that you can order the correct diameter of cast bullet for your specific revolver.
Calipers are often used for i.d. measurement, but their use may make it more difficult to obtain a true reading of throat diameter. The proper diameter cast bullet, one that is just a "push-through" or one which requires a light tap to get it through the cylinder throats, is thought to be the magic size which will provide the best accuracy.
A bullet diameter which is too large or too small (or wrong hardness) may contribute, among other factors, to inaccuracy, higher than proper operating pressure, and leading in your barrel.
IMHO
Sonny

I do have one question...

How do you store them to keep them from rusting?
I'd be afraid that if I were to oil it, the oil might coat it and give it a .001 coating and make it a bit oversize- even when wiped off with a soft cloth.

Perhaps my fears aren't valid though. I think I need a set of these for .38, .44 and .45.

__________________
Lost it all in a boat accident

Thanks for the explanation. Now a comment and PLEASE understand, this is not intended as criticism because I think your intended use suggests a very professional approach to reloading.

It seems to me that you will be using a standard of precision that the mold manufacturers and bullet casters won't be able to support, that the tolerances of commercial products will be such that they will overwhelm your very precise measurements. Am I out in left field? Don

Andy-

Don't use oil. Buy some Birchwood Casey Barricade. It is an extremely effective rust inhibitor/preventative, and there won't be enough surface buildup to be able to even measure. Then wipe them down after each use (only the ones that you just got handled), but the stuff works so well that you may not need to do it every time.

Grizzly Industrial sells a set of 250 gauges ( in increments of .0005) for about $70. You can buy them in plus or minus sizes of.0002". The minus size is the way to go. That allows you to fit the plug closest in diameter to the actual hole size. If it were the exact same, you wouldn't be able to slide them in or out without excessive pressure.

Order part #G9794. It is the minus size for 0.251-0.500"

www.grizzly.com

I hope this helps

I have had pretty good success using soft lead oval slip sinkers and a bit of RemOil as lube pushing them through the throats and measuring. The #8 size works fine for the 44's and 45's.

The gauges are made form 52100 Steel, which is a high carbon steel also containing chromium. This steel is commonly used in the production of race and ball-bearings. They do not rust easily as they are a form of stainless steel. But even stainless will rust if left in contact with water; stainless steels are only rust-resistant, not rustproof. I would still wipe them off with a rag after I used them, however.
The oil coating you might give it is nothing to worry about. I soaked one in dripping oil and the .433" (nominal) still measures .4328", like it should, with or without oil. These gauges are the "minus" or "ZZ" designation which comes in 0.0002" less than nominal, as Gun 4 un noted above.

For storage, I'll probably keep them in a CASE-GARD ammo box (LINK follows). Pick a box size which will fit your gauges for both large enough diameter and long enough for the 2" long gauges.
http://www.gunclips.net/ca60se.html
Sonny

Yes, excellent idea. Thanks for mentioning it.
I have a gun in my bench-mounted vise right now, using one of those "egg sinkers" that you buy in a fishing/sporting-goods store. I'm using it to measure barrel bore diameter.
For other readers: Use the ones that are soft lead, and that have a longitudinal hole running down the center of the sinker. Take along your caliper or mikes if you're not sure of the size. I had gotten the idea you mentioned from BeartoothBullets website which I really enjoy. Thanks for mentioning those sinkers. The proper sizes of these egg-sinkers: #7 = .530" , #8 = .470" , #9 = .369". You can take a smaller sinker and squeeze it end to end in your vise and make it fatter. I do that a lot.

I do like the gauges, however. They are really a class act.
Sonny

Fair question. I believe that the "better" (read more expensive) hard-cast bullets are all run through a sizer after they come out of the mould. And, from my measurements, perhaps even the cheaper bullets that you buy for $100 per thousand.
So when you receive them, they should be darned close to what you ordered. I just miked five different boxes of bullets, over four different manufacturers, in two calibers, and found no difference greater than 0.0002". And, of course, these are lead and subject to abuse from being bumped around in the box among the other bullets. I think you can accept that they are awfully close to what you order.
I still think that the final test boils down to:
The proper diameter cast bullet, one that is just a snug "push-through" (starting the bullet from the cylinder's rear) or one which requires a light tap or several light taps to get it through the cylinder throats, is generally thought to be the magic size which will provide the best accuracy.
Sonny

I bought a set of used pin gages at an auction over 15 years ago. Rust has never been a problem. I just wipe the fingerprints off them before putting them back in the box.

I picked up a set of pin gages .001-.050 off Ebay NIB for $45.00 several months ago.

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Semper FI

Whatever the outcome, I think you're doing all you can to optimize your reloading product.

My problem is that I shoot offhand almost exclusively and small differences in accuracy are overwhelmed by aiming errors. Don

I orderedthe same set as black talon. They work great but boy they are heavy. My set has something like 100 of them in a nice case but I have not found a good place to store them. I find them interesting to play with and see things like how different my Colt's are then my S&W's and how big is the lee FCD die to an RCBS sizer die. Stuff like that. Just a fun toy.

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SWCA 1646

Grizzly on-line had a set of 250 pieces .251 to .500 Undersized .0002 for $63.75 plus shipping. Comes in a nice case 17 x 12 x 3

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

I've been interested in getting a couple of plug gauge sets for quite some time but have hesitated because of cost.

The Grizzly set is about 1/4 the cost of the others. What about quality? My grand-dad said you get what you pay for.

So for a .38 spl revolver, what would be the useful range of plug gauges that you should buy? i.e. .356 to .358?

CptCurl,
The Grizzly set is EXCELLENT, Love mine.

MarcC,
Look at the set from Grizzly, 250 pieces, .251 to .500
.0002 MINUS size, Nice case 17 x 12 x 3
Was on sale for 63.75 plus shipping. you've got things covered then.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

Moonman,

Thanks!

Grizzly still has the 250 piece steel gage pin sets (MINUS .0002)) on sale for $63.25 plus shipping. Nice Plastic Case 17 x 12 x 3.

They have (PLUS .0002) sets and size sets other than the 250 piece set too.

__________________
NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

To bring life to an old thread:

Update: the grizzly set is no longer available for sale.

Meyer pin gauges are $2.69 apiece and they have a container that holds 25 of them.

My little set for 44's in the mail. I plan on wiping them off with a cloth with a little eezox on it.

Fermin Garza introduced me to the concept of using these to get a better handle on revolver (and other) dimensions.

A Contemporary Look At Barrel Leading and Related Sixgun Issues

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Nemo

Also MCS-they sell them individually-nice folks too.

ENCO has a 250 piece set like Grizzly used to sell.

It's on sale now and FREE SHIPPING.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

Just out of curiosity, is there any place to get a listing of cylinder throat diameters so you can plan a gauge purchase?
thanks,
Stu

Just buy the 250 piece PIN GAGE set ON SALE at ENCO
The MINUS .0002 Set.

.251 to .500

Some people buy the PLUS set too, PLUS .0002

The Minus set is really more useful to us.

Revolver CYLINDER BORE SIZES are most important for accuracy.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

As I read the ENCO catalog, the only set of pin gauges that are on sale are Vermont and the set we would use, .2510 - .5000 is shown on sale for $195.95. Tad steep for just a few measurements. If you have a link to a smaller set in the $50-$70 range, please let us know.
thanks,
Stu

stu1ritter,

Go to ebay.

Shars 250pc MINUS .0002 set steel pin plug gages NEW $63.85

119 sets sold, they ship from Illinois, I bought a 9x12x2 granite surface

plate a couple weeks ago and it shipped from an Illinois tool supplier.

The plate is nice.

This pin gage set for sale looks like the same 250 piece set I got from Grizzly last year, they are nice also.

Hope this helped.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

Moonman, a big thanks. Just what the Doctor ordered. Again, thanks.
Stu

For all dimensional information, THE place to go is SAAMI.org. There are links to specs on the home page. I recommend downloading and saving all their pdf specs to keep them readily available. Note that they do not cover every single cartridge out there - for instance .500 S&W is not listed.

Harumph on me. I've had all the SAAMI literature for some time but never REALLY read it. Now I realize the chamber dimensions are just under the cartridge dimensions. Gads, I really ought to open my eyes some time. Thanks.
Stu

If one were ordering individual pin gauges then, say for ,38 Special showing a SAAMI spec of .3580 would one go .357, .358 and .359 and should that cover the range for this caliber or would you broaden out your selection further?
thanks,
Stu

I went ahead and got the whole set, from Wholesale Tool as I recall. Don't recall how much it was but not too expensive. Came in three separate cases for the full range.

The set I bought from Grizzly last year looks just like the one on Ebay

that I mentioned in Post #29 is 250 pieces and comes in 1 nice plastic case.

__________________
NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

As a retired Mercedes mechanic and engine builder I have lots of measuring tools. I just spent a very pleasant half an hour with several different vernier calipers measuring cylinders. That was all that was need to get an idea of the range of pin gauges for each of the calibers I own, which in revolvers are only .32, .38 and .44.
Don't need much else. Interesting thread, thanks.
Stu

The Original Poster bought 5 gages for each of the 2 calibers

he owns, at $3 EACH or $30 total.

He now has 10 Individual LOOSE Gage Pins.

The set on Ebay is 250 Pieces .251 to .500 and .0002 MINUS SIZED.

for $63.85 Plus shipping.

It comes in a very nice plastic carrying case too.

PLUS .0002 sized set are also available.

PRETTY GOOD DEAL COMPARED TO $3 EACH. (The set would be $750)

I've seen individual pin gages like these for up to $6 Each.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

Take a close look at the shipping which adds $20.49 to the total or $84.34. Those puppies are pretty heavy at 20 something pounds. Lotsa steel there. For me, 3 or 4 times $3 and I'm done. I would have no use for a full set that I can think of. Is there any other use that can be found for pin gauges that I don't know about? Always glad to learn. While I twiddle with my revolvers having been a gunsmith in the Army, I don't do any outside work and my retirement hobby is working with wood. I've had enough of oil and steel over the years.
thanks,
Stu

Since I am/was only interested in one caliber for now (44), I didn't need or want a huge set of pins.
The nominal bore is .429 so I went with a couple smaller starting at
.428 and got 10 pins total every .0005 (minus) to .4325". Why so large?
The main culprit, besides the bore obstructions mentioned in the article I posted,
is oversized cylinder throats. The Bulldog I have is at least .4315
and the 1980's S&W 44's are large as well. .431 and .432 bullets are working well in them.
I got the pin gauges to more accurately document this stuff.
The calipers don't cut it when measuring holes.
I didn't want Chinese pins from ePray so I looked at the American
makers and chose Meyer Gage (that's how they spell it).
10 pins and a box that holds 25 was about $50 with the shipping.
The main problem with most, if not all of these, is that they are 2" long and are not going to fit inside many revolver frames.
Vermont quoted me for some custom ones that were shorter but they were 10 times the cost!

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Nemo

Nemo288,

Why are you concerned with fitting the pins inside revolver frames.

Open the cylinder and check the cylinder chamber bore fit sizes. (pin slides through it as GO or NO GO)

You size the barrel GROOVE DIAMETER by forcing a lubed SOFT LEAD BALL through the bore and measuring it.

S&W's cause a problem due to their 5 grooves, and you cannot measure directly.

You need a fixture and a conversion chart I do belive to arrive at the actual diameter.

If you want shorter pins, take the ones you bought and find someone with an abrasive wheel chop saw and cut them.

They're about 60 Rockwell hardness I think.

__________________
NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

The main reason is that I want to check bore obstructions from the forcing cone end and not the muzzle.
This is not always possible (like cleaning).
I have the bore slugs from LBT. You can send them back and Veral will measure them for you.

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Nemo

Nemi288,

If you possibly have a bore obstruction it would probably be where the barrel and frame meet, caused by thread crush during barrel installation.

You should be able to to FEEL it if there is any when you push the sizing slug through the barrel.

The slug would pick up EXTRA RESISTANCE that you should notice at the barrel/frame intersection.

You could then shoot FIRE LAPPING BULLETS FOR A FEW ROUNDS,

or have a gunsmith do a TAYLOR THROATING JOB on it, recommended by some, others NOT.

Make sure the the CYLINDER BORES are of EQUAL SIZE and LARGER than the BARREL BORE SIZE.

Shoot LEAD bullets that match your Cylinder Bore Size.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

I use pin gauges to check for loose/tight primer pockets.
I forget the min/max sizes I went with as they're out in the loading room.

" I use pin gauges to check for loose/tight primer pockets. "

That's a good idea. Dangit, everyone keeps giving me reasons to buy more tools!

I also want a blade micrometer to check case expansion right ahead of the rim.

Working with the 445, I feel the need to keep an even closer eye on pressure
as there is no SAMMI standard. I see that a limit of 40.6 KPSI has
appeared out of thin air in a couple of references. If anyone knows where
this came from I would be all ears. Having worked with and studied this
round since it's inception, I can tell that many of the original loads went over this limit.
Some went way over.
The few loads listed in the later editions of major manuals appear much saner.

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Nemo

I bought the Vermont stainless ZZ gauges on Amazon.
for Small primers I went with .173+ and .1745-
for Large I chose .208+ and .2095-
I had some 30-30 that failed the .2095 pin so I switched from Winchester primers to CCI and they are a still tight enough fit for light to medium loads.

My Enco plug gage set came yesterday. The cylinder mouths on 9 S&W 357 magnum revolvers was 0.357" . I'm a happy shooter. Tomorrow I check the 44 mags.

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S&WHF 366

Both my Redhawk and 629-2 MR will pass a .4325-
Things were really large in the 1980's.
I am shooting .432 lead and this makes the OD of the neck large
enough so a Redding pro-crimp die won't pass the cartridge. I need
to ream it out slightly or have them make me another one.
I can use the crimper in the RCBS seat dies.
I could also slightly inside neck ream the brass but don't really want to weaken it any.
This is a well known problem with 44's
I understand 45's have an even wider range of dimensions.

I am certainly glad you ended up with nominal throats.
Don't know what I would do with those

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Nemo

My 29-2 (1977) measues .4320" but I've always shot .430" cast lead bullets & have never been disappointed with it's accuracy. I wonder what it would do if I had the right size?

Been thinking about getting some gages for awhile & I finally ordered the (250) pin gage set, #616-8131, .251" -.500" from Enco. They processed & shipped it the following morning (free shipping). After thinking about all the calibers I wanted to check & the various clearances needed, it just made $$ sense to order the whole set.

There is no brand name on the box & of course they were made in China. They come in a sturdy plastic box, with a latchable hinged cover, standing vertically, all are just shy of 2" long & are individually marked with their size. The set does measure up to their advertised specifications. This is a Minus set listed at -.0002" tolerance. **Initially I thought some of the pin gages were out-of-specs, but once I bought a set of micrometers I was able to verify that, the randon ones I checked, were all within -.0001" to -.0002" range, so no problems there.**

Obviously they aren't premium gages at $75, but for my purposes though, I can live with them. Having a set that incremented .0005", instead of .001" would be nice but would be huge & costly, I'm sure. The .001" sizing worked fine for me. I could guessimate the .0005" by the feel of the gage's tightness. And it was definitely good having a full set because some of the guns were farther from standard the I would have guessed, if I was buying the gages individually.

All in all I'm happy & I got to record all the readings I wanted. To me tools are an investment that pay for themselves over their life. Now to think up another use for these.

It's when the chamber mouths are smaller than the bore that the real
accuracy and leading problems begin. If they are larger then the bullet
isn't skidding sideways down the barrel. Veral Smith's book has much
explanation about this and other cast bullet wisdom. He is also a
big fan of the gas check.

Now that I am shooting bigger bullets, I am finding that the shape of the
bullets affects accuracy too. The LBT style with more driving surface
and weight out front is showing more natural accuracy than the Keith
form SWC. It's taking way less development to find loads that will
one-hole at 50 feet. (That's all the room I have at the range I frequent).


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Nemo