Anybody using Universal in the .38? I'm wanting to use it with a 158 gr. lead RNFP Lee bullet. The Hodgdon website lists 3.5-4.5 with a 158 LSWC. I'm leaning toward 4.0-4.2 as a starting point. Anybody got a favorite recipe for this combo?

In my loading for my gun I got 724 fps with 4.0 gr of Universal. But that was 357 brass with RSP primers and Missouri Match 158 gr SWCs. Speer #13 Lyman #49 Hodgdons 2009 Magazine/manual all agree with your suggestions for a 158 gr SWC in 38 Special.

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M629-4PP M686-4PP M617

I haven't used it in 38 Special with 158 gr bullet but I had very good results developing a snubby SD load using Universal with a 148 gr. DEWC. You'll get better results with it if you work your way up towards the max load.

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Andy

I'm looking for a little more velocity than I get from my usual load of 3.1 gr of regular Clays. These loads will be fired in guns chambered for .357, so I don't see the need to back way off the max of 4.5 gr. Pressure was still in the 16,000 range at the max loading.

I load a bit warmer 5 gn. but the accuracy was better and no problems with my guns.

I sent you a PM.

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Andy

Are there not 3 different Universals or 3 different clays ? This has confused me to the point where I have never tried them . :-(

God bless
wyr

I see it mostly listed as Hodgdon 'Universal'. It's right near Unique & rather clean burning. It's one of my most commonly used handgun powders.

I use the same lee bullet in a 6" 586.

For a light load, 3.5gr and 4.7gr for a p+ load.

I really like this powder, highly accurate, easy to use and a little goes a long way.

There are 3 different powders in the Clays line, Clays, International Clays and Universal Clays. All three are very different so don't mix them up.

As for Universal, like said above, it is very close to Unique and for the most part loads just like Unique except it's much cleaner. Many reloaders changed over to Universal when Unique was not available during the latest powder crunch. The guys I know that did said they are not changing back.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Have you by chance chronographed any of those loads?

I'm sorry, never ran them across a chrony. That's always been one of my bad habits. I reload a pistol for accuracy, as long as they all cut a ragged hole at 50ft, I could care less about their speed.

As it stands right now to test them wouldn't give any real meaningful numbers. I treated my 586 with molyfusion.

Well, I'm gonna retire to my cave and load up a small batch with 4+something grains and see what happens. I have a GP100 I can use as a test bed. Seriously, I doubt 4.5-4.7 grains is anything to worry about unless fired in an aluminum cylinder snubby.

Here's some .38 Special chrono data for Universal:

155 gr SWC Cast, 5.0 gr Universal, Rem 1-1/2 primer
S&W Model 36 2" barrel - 804 fps SD11
S&W Model 60-4 3" barrel - 856 fps SD13
Ruger Speed-Six 4" barrel - 903 fps SD18

155 grain SWC Cast, 4.6 gr Universal, Rem 1-1/2 primer
S&W Model 60-15 3" barrel - 748 fps SD23

I've only loaded a real light load of 3.8grs Universal under a 158gr LSWC and it ran just over 700fps with a pretty wide spread, so I would definitely go 4.2+grs on any others I load. I do use regular Clays mostly on the .38 158gr LSWC, 3.1grs=777fps and 3.3grs=823fps in my 6" gun.

4.2 gr of Universal, in 38 special cases, Oregon trail 158 LSWC, chronos out to an average of 765 FPS in my 4" model 10. I would take that max load of 4.5 gr with a bit of salt. I think Hodgen lists a heavier load of Universal with 158gr jacketed bullet.

That aside, except for 148gr target wadcutter loads, which I load with titegroup, I use Universal for all my 38 special loads, from mild to +P. It meters great, and is clean. It also works good for mid-range 357 mag loads. It is a great powder.

And they are all used as shotgun powders - Clays is fast, International is less fast, and Universal is medium speed.

They are not all pistol powders! DO NOT use International in pistol loads. Hodgdon warns this. International has a very peculiar charge-pressure curve that can push you into very high pressures with a minuscule increase in powder, and it is not very predictable. International is, however, one of the best shotgun powders - it gives lower pressure (and lower felt recoil) that really makes a difference to your shoulder after a 300 round trap shoot.

The first Unique shortage happened in the early 90's when Alliant bought Hercules. There have been others since. When it first happened, I switched to Universal, and I haven't been back. Universal is cleaner than Unique, and it meters better through the Dillon.


Buck

Buck,
I fail to see where I said or even implied any of the Clays powder line were pistol powders...

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

AACD,

I never said that you did. I was just passing along the information since Clays and Universal are very popular pistol powders, and on some forums there has been discussion of using International for pistol reloads. There's no data on Hodgdon's website about that, so I called them. They were most emphatic that International should not be used for pistols. I was certainly not trying to blame you for anything, I was just trying to save someone's face (literally).

Buck

P.S. I have seen one K-B with the stuff. Nasty! Broke the slide, cracked the chamber. We couldn't get the gun apart.

epj: Don't just start off with 4.5 to 4.7 grains of UC under 158 grains of bullet. I load with UC all the time and it builds pressure rapidly. IMHO you should start with 4.0 grains and go up no more than 0.1 grain at a time. I load 4.0 grains of UC under a 110 grain Berry HPplated and it is a stiff little load. ........... Big Cholla

I really like the accuracy and clean burning of UC. As said before; DON'T mix up the Clays...........

I tried Universal in 38 Special with 158 grain LSWC's. Wasn't a very clean load. Really didn't like the combination. This was with the Hornady swaged bullets with the dry lube so it wasn't the lubes fault it was so dirty.

All the Best,
D. White

In my experience, any lead bullet load is dirty, even with dry lube. I shoot Universal with jacketed bullets and it burns clean. I shoot it with lead, including some Hornaday and there is residue.

I use Universal Clays in .38 Special, .41 Mag, .44 Special and .44 Mag. with my own cast lead bullets. I like it.
I thought International Clays was slower than Universal Clays?
Dick

They actually show International Clays about halfway between Clays and Universal in burn rate. But for some reason they don't list any handgun loads with it. I use to use a lot of Red dot/Unique/Blue Dot powders and now use mainly Clays and Universal with Longshot under jacketed magnum loads.

Guess that just goes to show you, you need to pay attention to what you're doing! I used a pound of it several years ago and didn't like it.
Dick

International is one of those shotgun powders which doesn't play well in handgun ammo. I think the pressures can spike easily or it has a pressure curve that can be dangerous in handgun calibers so it's not recommended for handgun use.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

for my .38's I use 5.0 gr Universal with 125 gr XTP/HP and CCI standard primers

jlynch34
would you shoot that same load exchanging the xtp/hp for speer 125 tmj

You do realize that this thread is ten years old right? !

10 years . Gotta be a record for a zombie thread coming back to life .

Sorry didnt know there was a time limit

Very old threads sometimes get resuscitated, but I don't know how.

I shoot a lot of Universal. Load 5gr with both 130gr Coated Lead and 158gr Coated Lead. Both weights are very accurate and mild shooting loads. Ive been using this combination for several years and IIRC, the 158 is pushing the +P data in one or two manuals. The 158gr load runs slightly over 1000fps in my 8 3/8" M686 and the 130 gr around 1125fps.

I think I know how. There are 2 ways.
One is people doing a search and then resurrecting a thread that pertains to their question. That one makes perfect sense.

The other is that I think the board software just randomly pulls up old threads and posts them on the default opening page for smith-wessonforum.com That one I don't really understand.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

Actually, I read this thread from start to finish and learned something...

Having used UNIVERSAL for quite a while I finally got a 1 lb. container of CLAYS to use for a specific application. Since I don't reload shotgun I've yet to try INTERNATIONAL, but can certainly see how someone could easily get confused when the subject of using "Clays" comes up.

Almost like the numbered rifle powders, i.e., H4895 vs. IMR4895...?

Cheers!

P.S. At least those Clays containers are clearly marked as being CLAYS, UNIVERSAL & INTERNATIONAL.

Newer members scanning the archives and bump the thread with another question or comment. Sometimes irritating, but no big deal...

FWIW, I was looking for some Unique just prior to obumma's term and could not find any but I did find Universal. Since then my Unique use has dropped to almost nuttin' and I use Universal in all my handguns...

I don't like Universal at all, left way too much unburned powder. I use regular Clays for most of my .38 Special and 45 ACP loads with complete satisfaction.

Universal has always been my small gauge shotgun powder. Love the stuff for its clean burning. That said, I remember several years where it was not available due to a fire in its Australian factory. I have seen it pretty regularly since it came back. Good to know it's an alternative for handgun loads in case HP-38/WW-231 goes through another round of scarcity. I like to stay with proven powders, but it's getting hard with periodic shortages.

Be VERY CAREFUL that you are using the correct data for the Clays variant you are using. The names and labeling can be somewhat confusing.
I have used it for several years for .44 Special loads. Was very happy with it until I bought and started loading from a new bottle that I thought was the same as I had loaded up a large batch of ammo with 8 years ago. In January I took a few of the new batch of ammo that I had loaded Out behind the shop for testing. On the third shot blew the top half of the cylinder and whole top strap off of my Charter Arms Bulldog.

Am changing powders for the next session.