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.38 SPL +P loads with WIN 231

3

336A

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I finally broke down the other day and bought some WIN 231 powder. I have been using Unique in my .38 SPL with good results using commercial cast 158gr SWCBB (tennesse Valley Bullets) bullets and the Lyman data from the cast bullet handbook . I decided to try WIN 231 becuase I keep hearing that as a whole it is a very accurate powder, and meters very well. At the moment I'm only going to be using it for standard pressure loads. I'm thinking along the lines of about 4.5gr of 231 behind some of Jessie's 158gr SCW bullets.

Then I got to thinking what if I end up really liking this powder and want to try some +P loads? So I referenced my two Lyman books and the confussion began as to which data I should follow using TVB bullets. Should I use the data listed for the #358156 (155gr) which lists the max +P load as 5.0gr or the data for the #358311 (160gr) which the max listed +P load is 5.2gr? Any of you WIN 231 users have any idea? For the moment I'm leaning towards the 358311 data as the 358156 uses a gas check. However I would like to hear from the more knowledgable folks here on this.
 
I use 4.6 grains of 231 in .38 Special and a 150 grain SWCHP as the load I carry for SD. I get 822 fps from a 2" M36 and have seen no indications of any pressure problems (and didn't expect to).

Hodgdon web site shows 4.3/231 with a 158 grain XTP as a max load for non+P .38 Special, so I figured a lighter lead bullet would work with a little more powder.

I have thought about pushing it a little, but I think I would try something that burns a little slower. Just haven't gotten around to it.
 
Retired, I don't use the hodgdon site, as a matter of fact I loath it it with a purple passion. Most of their +P data is watered down compared to what is listed in the Lyman, Speer and especially the Sierra manual. However I like the Lyman manuals the best as I only shoot lead bullets in the .38 SPL. Their data also reflects what the .38 SPL is really capable of compared to the Hodgdon site.
 
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I have a load which uses a 158 gr. cast bullet and 4.8 grs. of 231, for an average velocity of 875 FPS over the chronograph. Funny thing is I think I chronographed this out of my 2" Model 60-7. I was trying to come up with a good load that will make IDPA and USPSA Minor Power Factor, since so many shooters have the misguided impression that this is such a hard thing to do. Only 125 PF is needed to make Minor, and this load does 138 PF. I have found this load to be entirely safe and 231 burns very clean at this velocity.

Dave Sinko
 
When Winchester was publishing the data they listed 4.5grs of W231 as max standard velocity and 4.7grs as maximum for +P with a 158gr LSCW.

Using Speer 158gr LSWC, Fiocchi cases and WSP primers, 4.5grs of W231 average 822 fps from my 4" barreled S&W 66 and 4.7grs averaged 879 fps from the same pistol.

From my Colt Detective special same components and 4.5grs averaged 794 fps.

From a 4-3/8" Ruger Black Hawk the 4.7gr load averaged 901 fps.

If you check published velocity for Winchester ammo these loads duplicate them.

Here is a link to the Winchester 2002 manual on my FTP space;
http://www.members.cox.net/scollins15/transfers_public/Winchester2002.pdf
 
Steve C thank you for the real world data and the link.
 
I like 4.4 grs of 231 with a 180 gr. Sierra JFP. Very impressive results out of my 2" snubbie. This is right out of the Hodgdon # 26 manual. Very hard hitting and accurate in my weapon. But 4.8 grs. with a 158 XTP is good too. You loose about 100 fps. with the 180gr. but I think it's worth it if penetration is what your after. If not, the 158 gr. XTP is better IMO. If you are really set on using cast bullets then I would use the 190gr SWC. There are many people out there that have more experience trusting their lives to a 38 special than I do and have heard them sing the praises of a 190 gr. swc over all else.
 
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Ditto Steve's data...Speer lists 4.7gr with their 158 LHP. W-231 also excellent for .45 ACP, FWIW. Good stuff !!
 
I like 231 also. We ran dry locally here for about a year and I had to resort to the HP38 clone which everybody reports is the same thing. Frankly I think it smokes more, but get equal results with the same recipes.

I was experimenting with various 38/357 loads using 125/158 cast boolits and was surprised to come up with a load that would produce identical POI from the same charge level using these 2 slug sizes.
 
m657 said:
...I was experimenting with various 38/357 loads using 125/158 cast boolits and was surprised to come up with a load that would produce identical POI from the same charge level using these 2 slug sizes....
Click to expand...

I've always wondered about all you guys who use the word "Boolits" for the word "Bullets". Did all you-all shoot on the Yale shooting team or something? I know the Yale football team has the song with the words "Boola-Boola" in it. Does the Yale shooting team have a song with the words "Boola-Boolits" in it? That would make sense. Otherwise there ain't a reason to use the word "Boolits".

Keeping to the actual thread... if there is one thing I've found out in 44 years of reloading, it is that you can go nuts comparing reloading manuals. They are a guide, but you are going to have to find out for yourself what works in your guns. For WW231/HP38 loads I was having a heck of a time trying to figure the "Real" starting loads and the "Real" max loads. The starting load in some manuals was above the maximum in others! Instead of taking any one manual as gospel, look at them all. Write down the absolute bottom load and the absolute top load in all the manuals. Never go past the highest number no matter what, and never go below the lowest number no matter what. Then start at the bottom and work up slowly and carefully watching for all
pressure signs. Eventually you will find something that will shoot to your satisfaction in your guns. I'm particularly irritated with the .38 Special loads in the most recent Speer manual. They don't even have loads for 158 grain jacketed bullets in the .38 Special in the Speer #13 manual! Many years ago I worked up a .38 Special load using WW231/HP38 from data in the Speer #11. This load still works fine IN MY GUNS despite the fact it is no longer recommended by Speer and above maximum in some manuals. I can get 20 loadings from a case with no problems, so you can't convince me there is something wrong with this load. I do the same thing when trying to find a cast bullet load. I'm sure you will be able to find a very good +P .38 Special load using WW231/HP38.
 
Boola-Boolets, Boola-Boolets, Boola-Boolets, Boola-Boo
I'm gonna shoot some
Boola-Boolets
At the target
Using Varget
When my boolets
Hit the center
I will enter
Yale's mentor
Boola-Boolets, Boola-Boolets, Boola-Boolets, Boola-Boo

Sorry guys, but this is all I can think of when I see the word "Boolets".

Like I always say: A sick mind is a terrible thing to waste.
 
whelenshooter said:
Boola-Boolets, Boola-Boolets, Boola-Boolets, Boola-Boo
I'm gonna shoot some
Boola-Boolets
At the target
Using Varget
When my boolets
Hit the center
I will enter
Yale's mentor
Boola-Boolets, Boola-Boolets, Boola-Boolets, Boola-Boo

Sorry guys, but this is all I can think of when I see the word "Boolets".

Like I always say: A sick mind is a terrible thing to waste.
Click to expand...

Good one. I feel the same way. Our language is getting butchered up enough as it is.
 
I don't shoot boolets; I shoot bullets. I think maybe I'll start pronouncing them to rhyme with the word "beret" (the crappy French hat that won't keep the sun out of your eyes) just to be different. Does anyone want to join me?

I love having a warped mind!
 
Even though I use W231 for most of my .38 Special ammo for .38 Special +P ammo I usually use a slower powder like HS-6. W231 is too fast to produce the velocity I'm looking for without pushing the pressure limits. It can be done with W231 but as always, be careful of the charge weights. (which is fairly easy to with with W231 because it meters well) I agree with you the data on the Hodgdon site is ridiculous and almost worthless. (all be it safe lol)

I trust and use Lyman load data so use the data in the Lyman manual for the bullet that most closely matches the profile of Jessie's TVB.
 
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