I had ordered some 158 grain cast SWC's with gas checks from Montana Bullet Co. and loaded some up yesterday. I used 11.5 grains of the old Hercules 2400, as I had a pound of it in the metal can with the snap on lid.

I went to the range today with my recently acquired Outdoorsman, and shot 50 rounds, with the first six being single action and the rest double action at 25 yards. Except for a few rounds, I kept most of them in the black and the majority of those were in the 9, 10, & X ring. To say I was impressed with the way the gun shot was an understatement. I did shoot off of a sandbag rest though.

The trigger pull seemed heavy, and the grooved trigger really bit into my trigger finger, so when I cleaned the gun after getting home, I changed out the rebound slide spring for a 15# one, installed a reduced power mainspring from Wolff, and also installed a wider smooth faced trigger to see if that will help.

The loads were stout, but extracted easily and there were no flattened primers. I will definitely order more from Montana Bullet when I need them.

I also shot a recently acquired 1951 K-22 using CCI Green Tag ammo, and off of the rest, except for 6 or so rounds, they all went in the black too. The majority of the shots were double action also.

It was a good day, and as there were many carpenter bees flying around, I sometimes waited until one was in the vicinity of the muzzle blast before taking a shot, but I don't know if it bothered those that were close.

Sounds like you had a good time.
I use the 358156 HP with a gas check over 11.5 gr of 2400 and find it to be an excellent load, accurate out to 100 yards or more with an Outdoorsman.
It's pretty much become my standard load in N frame 38s and 357s.

WOW, I just checked the venerable old Speer #8 and saw your load was .5gr above the maximum load in it! WOW!

Where did you get your data from?

I checked Lyman/Ideal No. 39, which has a section for ".38 Special High Vel. for Heavy Frame Guns Only", and 11.5 grs. of 2400 with a 158 gr. bullet shouldn't be a problem

Well, Jelly, we will have to make a note of this! There is a manual that is actually HOTTER in some places than the Ole' #8!

Elmer Keith used 13.5 grains of 2400 behind his 160 grain HP SWC or his hollow based SWC in the Smith big frame .38's, but I think that is excessive.

Ken Waters Pet Loads, Volume 2, shows that Kent Bellah, a noted authority on hand loading used 12 grains of 2400 as a maximum charge for .38 Specials, but whether that was used in just N frame type Smiths or the K frame too, I don't know. As for me, I will limit my loads to 11.5 grains of 2400 and use them in the N frames only, although I think the K frame .357 Magnum revolvers would be okay too.

I am going to chrongraph my load pretty soon to see what the velocity is, but I believe it will be in the vicinity of 1,150 fps.

As I stated earlier in my first post, recoil was stout, but not bad, especially with the big frame. I did use Pachmayr grips to help absorb the recoil too.

One other thing, most powder manufacturers reloading manuals are a little conservative with their loads for obvious reasons, although to be fair, they do have the expertise and equipment to make their assessments, so I have never gone over any manuals (that I have used) maximum loading for a particular powder/bullet combination. I also do not remember ever using a maximum powder charge in any of my loads, except when I used W-W 296 and followed Winchester's load to a "T" as recommended.

Bill,
I don't have any problem with using older data. I just wondered where you had gotten it. I knew about Skeeter's loads and Phil Sharpe's too.

I have 38spl loads that I use in an "L" frame that are easily running more than 1150fps from those 6" barrels.

In fact, those 158gr LSWC are running that out of a 3" barrel "J" frame!

I just don't use 2400 to get it done.

I agree with your assessment of new manufacturer's data, pretty sad really.

At any rate, be safe and have fun!

Lyman 39 (Copyright May, 1953) is pretty interesting Skip, the only problem is most of the handgun powders are no longer available. But for old fogeys, like me, that still prefers Bullseye and Unique it does come in handy.

Max* loads they list in the Heavy Frame guns only section using 2400 include:

150 gr. Thompson H.P. Gas Check or 150 gr. wadcutter....13.5 gr.

148 gr. Cast hollow base...14.0 gr.

160 gr. Keith hollow point and hollow base...12.0 gr.

158 gr. Thompson Cast Plain Base...13.5 gr.

* Caution!!! This data is for use in heavy framed revolvers in good condition only.

Yup!

Nope!

Neat thread, guys; thanks.

Bill,
You may want to buy a back issue of the October/November 2006 issue of Handloader. There is an excellent article by Brian Pearce devoted specifically to the .33/44 Outdoorsman and Heavy Duty revo's.

There are a lot of good, tested loads listed that are designed specifically for the Colt SAA, New Service, as well as the Outdoorsman. He shows an RCBS cast swc weighing 156 grains, with 13 grains of 2400 in Starline cases, and using Fed 100 primers as giving 1256 fps from a 6.5" Outdoorsman. There are many other loads that are safe for use in the Outdoorsman, New service, and SAA as well.

He even shows the Lyman 358429 that weighs in at 173 with his alloy over 13 grains of 2400 as giving 1261 fps from the same gun. You may want to order an issue for future referrence when loading for your gun. You can order one from wolfe Publishing (800) 899-7810.

I have a Colt Shooting Master, and have tried some 38-44 loads with 2400 and 160gr commercial BBSWCs These bullets take up more room in the case than true Keith types. I find that 12gr is really great, but I don't like the look of 13gr in Starline .38spl+P cases with Federal primers. Ejection is still easy with the left thumb, but primers are flat. The 12gr load gave 1135fps in my 3in M-66.

__________________
dd884
JMHO-YMMV

They used that 13.5 grain load back in the day. My suspicion is that the cases had greater capacity, and/or the primers were a little bit milder.

I worked up to it one time, fired a few in my model 27. Not ever going to load any more. It was right on the ragged edge, and I shot them on a fairly cool day.

Lots of fun, but I prefer a slightly milder load, thank you.

I have used 13.5 grains 2400 with the Lyman 358156, both the hollowpoint that weighed about 150 grains and the solid version that weighed a little over 160 grains, in .38 Special brass.

They showed no high pressure signs, but remember, these bullets have two crimping grooves, and using the lower groove gives quite a bit of extra case capacity/lower pressures than seating and crimping in the upper groove.

I shot a lot of them in .38-44 S&W revolvers, both Heavy Duties and Outdoorsmen. I never tried them in a K frame .38 but probably shot some of them in K frame .357 Magnums.

With the gas check, these bullets shot very accurately, and sized to .358", left little to no leading behind. Pretty sure I used the Hornaday gas checks, which sort of crimp on when seated.

I think I chronographed them once but can't find my records right now. They felt about like factory 158 grain Magnum ammo shot in a Highway Patrolman. You really felt like you had something there in your hands, a very substantial feeling.

I only ever used new brass or brass previously loaded with the load, without any cannelures. Someone wrote that the un-grooved brass was likely a bit stronger. Pretty sure the brass was Winchester; I bought a batch of 2,500 pieces for the project when I bought the bullet moulds.

I never experienced a case failure. Some of the brass was loaded and shot at least 5 times.

Like a lot of my handloading adventures of the time, I was following the writings of Skeeter Skelton. Loading stuff as he loaded it usually was problem-free.

I've created my own .38/44 loads with a cast Keith SWC and "the Load." It produces a very consistent 1150 fps from my 5 inch 27, and is economical, as well as easy to shoot.

12 grains of 2400 with the 358156 in the lower crimp groove gets 1175 average with a 20fps extreme spread out of my 5" 627. Feels like a nice light magnum/heavy 38 loading

Thank you. I will order the back copy.