Reasonable full power load for: 2" bbl + titanium + 158gr JHP

[TacticalReload]

I have a 327 (Scandium / Titanium 8-shot N-frame with 2" barrel) that I'm trying to work up a defensive load for. (I am hoping not to start another thread about the debate about legal issues surrounding using reloads for defense.) I've been reloading for years with tens of thousands of rounds loaded and have plenty of books with loads in them, but I wanted some real world experience.

My criteria are as follows:

(1) I bought a .357 mag for a reason... so I'm not looking for .38 +P velocities. I understand that it's a 2" barrel and I won't be hitting 1500fps, but something proportionally more powerful would be nice. I know this thing is going to kick and I don't want something that will be impossible to shoot, but at least it's not a J-frame. :-)

(2) I would like to stick with 158gr JHP bullets. I know that S&W says that 125gr should be okay for the cylinder, forcing cone, top strap, etc.; but I'd like to have some extra insurance. Plus I think acceptible penetration is probably more important to me than explosive expansion... especially with velocities from a 2" bbl. Plus I happen to have a supply of XTP in that grain.

(3) It would be nice to not have an explosive fireball of unburnt powder lighting up the night sky if I were to ever have to use this for defensive purposes.

(4) If you've tested this load for bullet "crimp jump" in a 22 oz revolver, all the better! :-) As an FYI, that is about the same weight as an all-steel J-frame .357mag snubby. The XTP's have a standard cannelure, but you never know.

(5) I want this to be safe for my revolver. I don't expect to shoot tons of this particular load, but I've seen pics online of (mostly Sc / Ti guns) with cylinders / top straps / forcing cones that have been pretty well spent have very few rounds of various loads that were w/i pressure limits.

Thanks so much in advance for any help / advice you can provide!!!

[Erich]

I appreciate your discussion of your experience level; one doesn't want to make suggestions to someone who might not know how to apply them.

Do you have a Speer # 8 . . . look at its starting .38 Special loading for 158-gr bullets with SR 4756. This loading, known around the web thanks to member Jessie/NKJ Nut, got a lot of discussion here and is certainly above SAAMI maximums (first published after the Speer # 8) for the .38 Spl +P, but I've yet to hear the Nellie suggest that it's anything but perfectly safe in a .357 Magnum.

From that barrel length, this load should give you velocities of around 1050 fps, which is pretty decent. The short .38 cases should eject pretty positively from even that gun's short-stroke ejector rod.

Please feel free to email me if you have any questions about this. THE LOAD might be just the thing for your .357 snub.

[TacticalReload]

I mentioned my experience with reloading just because I know that a lot of folks who are just starting out like to jump right to the hottest loads they can find that anyone mentions online... I wanted to let people know that I'm over that phase that newbie reloaders go through. ;-)

I have heard about Speer #8 and the page with loadings for 2" barrels... unfortunately, I don't have a copy of it. However, I seem to recall seeing a scanned copy of it online somewhere. I'll have to do an online search of it again when I get home.

Thanks for the suggestion!

[Erich]

My pleasure, sir.

[Skip Sackett]

Hope this helps. I'm not a fan of using any of these loads on a continual basis in any alloy handgun. Just me.

One thing that needs to be said here: "You are an adult responsible for your actions." Erich has given you the information that these loads are above SAAMI standards. Load at your own risk, period.

[Erich]

There he is with the good stuff!

[TacticalReload]

So here's a question... while I understand the fact that .38sp cases extract easier, what other benefit would there be to using these loads over the .357mag loads currently published for these same powders. For example, the 2400 load adds another 4+ grains to the max load.

Is it just finding the limit to what you'll be willing to take with recoil & flash or is there something else that is special about these infamous Speer #8 loads? :-)

[Skip Sackett]

They work as advertised. Every load that I use from that old manual gives me within 25fps of published velocity. That simply isn't true with data from the major powder companies, Hodgdon included.

Their maximum load in 357Mag with a 158gr LSWC is 6.5gr and is supposed to deliver 1200 and some fps. Not from any of my guns!

I even used a 6" M586 & M686 to test them from. The best I could get was a measly 900fps with some change. I used a load from the Speer #8, actually just under the minimum for the combination I was using, and got the velocity I desired, 1280fps or so.

Now, you do what you want. I won't run any more of these loads in a 38spl K frame and surely not an alloy one. Just me though. In my steel L frame 357Mags, you bet. If I had an N frame, even if it was a 38spl, I'd feel perfectly safe shooting these loads in it.

By the way, that load runs 1580fps from a Marlin 1894. Perfect for the wifey to shoot and not flinch when doing so.

Part of physics says that energy can not be destroyed. Armed with that knowledge, which powder charge is going to give more recoil. a 10gr or 20gr? Why put more in than you will get out? Both will give the same velocity!

FWIW

[Hoptob]

Hey guys,

It was awhile. Good to see old friends talking THE LOAD again

TR, it's hard to answer your question because we don't know what recoil you can handle. Shooting full power 357 mag loads from a 22 oz gun takes practice, a lot of practice. Higginbotham test is what many people would recommend as as a way to find out max power that you can shoot fast and accurate. Load (or buy) some mid-range and full house loads and shoot them from your 327. 5 shots at 5 yards in 5" circle in 3 sec. Once you know what load you can "qualify" yourself with, you can chrono it and then look for a handload or a factory load with similar ballistics.

Mike

[Skip Sackett]

Hey Mike, long time no talk to!

[Erich]

So here's a question... while I understand the fact that .38sp cases extract easier, what other benefit would there be to using these loads over the .357mag loads currently published for these same powders.

There's nothing magical about the #8, it's just that it has useful information for answering your question. You asked about a decent loading for your superlight/supershort .357 - I suggested that THE LOAD will give you solid controllable performance at decent pressures (same performance as many factory .357 loadings from that bbl length at lower pressures) using far less powder and with the added benefit of a case that your midget ejector rod might actually be able to clear from your frou-frou metal cylinder.

But if you want to get out the Lil' Gun and the magnum primers, be my guest: 18.0 grains of Lil' Gun is the max load for 158-grainers in the .357 Magnum. I enjoy this Lil' Gun loading quite a bit - though I wouldn't think that particular gun would maximize its effectiveness. Hey, and 15.0 grains of Lil' Gun is the max loading for 180-grain bullets - I use that load as well. Again, not what I'd choose for use in your gun, but it might be that I didn't understand what you're looking for in your original question. Either way, have fun.

[Skip Sackett]

18.0 grains of Lil' Gun is the max load for 158-grainers in the .357 Magnum.

Erich, I have been running a load that I found in "Rifle Issue #226 - July, 2006" out of my Marlin 1894 rifle. It goes just a tad higher than the load you posted. I get the results that go along with the article. Puts the 357Mag into the low end of the 35 Remington at that level!

Accurate and nice shooting from the little cowboy gun.

Just thought I would throw that in there as a sub point!

[TacticalReload]

Originally Posted by smith crazy

They work as advertised. Every load that I use from that old manual gives me within 25fps of published velocity. That simply isn't true with data from the major powder companies, Hodgdon included.

Their maximum load in 357Mag with a 158gr LSWC is 6.5gr and is supposed to deliver 1200 and some fps. Not from any of my guns!

I even used a 6" M586 & M686 to test them from. The best I could get was a measly 900fps with some change. I used a load from the Speer #8, actually just under the minimum for the combination I was using, and got the velocity I desired, 1280fps or so.

Now, you do what you want. I won't run any more of these loads in a 38spl K frame and surely not an alloy one. Just me though. In my steel L frame 357Mags, you bet. If I had an N frame, even if it was a 38spl, I'd feel perfectly safe shooting these loads in it.

By the way, that load runs 1580fps from a Marlin 1894. Perfect for the wifey to shoot and not flinch when doing so.

Part of physics says that energy can not be destroyed. Armed with that knowledge, which powder charge is going to give more recoil. a 10gr or 20gr? Why put more in than you will get out? Both will give the same velocity!

FWIW

Fair enough. I don't think I would run any of the non-SAAMI loads through a gun that I didn't think could handle it. I would, however, feel pretty good about at least trying any of those .38sp loads in a .357mag of any variety as long as I could handle the recoil. That being said, the only model I intend on shooting this load from is both a .357mag and an N-frame (albeit an alloy one). I don't think I'll feed it a steady diet, but I would hope that it would stand up to occassional shooting with ANY .357mag load that was within pressure and did not violate the greater-than-120gr rule.

That's why my question was looking for a good reason not to try the .357mag loads over the .38sp loads. If I am reading your post correctly, you are saying that the main reason is that because you are getting the SAME or MORE velocity out of the latter. If that's true, then I would totally agree that it's the way to go. I have nothing against the idea of a modern day .38-44.

One thing I wonder about is your assessment that you won't get any more velocity out of a greater powder charge yet you will get enough of an increase in recoil to make it not worthwhile. I understand that a greater charge in a different case might not give you more velocity. However... I'm not a scientist but, like you said, based on physics, how can you get a lot bigger of a push back on your hand without an equal push forward out the barrel? It might be louder, it might be brighter, and it might occur over a shorter period of time making it feel snappier... but the whole "equal and opposite reaction" thing occurs, right?

Originally Posted by Hoptob

Hey guys,

It was awhile. Good to see old friends talking THE LOAD again

TR, it's hard to answer your question because we don't know what recoil you can handle. Shooting full power 357 mag loads from a 22 oz gun takes practice, a lot of practice. Higginbotham test is what many people would recommend as as a way to find out max power that you can shoot fast and accurate. Load (or buy) some mid-range and full house loads and shoot them from your 327. 5 shots at 5 yards in 5" circle in 3 sec. Once you know what load you can "qualify" yourself with, you can chrono it and then look for a handload or a factory load with similar ballistics.

Mike

Am I correct that by "handle" you mean "able to shoot accurately and quickly" instead of mean "tolerate the pain"? :-) I've shot LOTS over the past dozen years... based on a lot of years shooting competition and such, I probably can handle a substantial amount of recoil for a limited number of rounds. I find that after a few cylinders, however, accuracy starts going downhill. As for tolerating the pain, if it was a defensive situation, that isn't an issue. During practice, I'm not nearly as macho as I was 15 years ago.

That being said, I think your ideas about testing what I can and cannot handle are probably fair enough. Without actually trying but based on a realistic self-assessment, I'm fairly confident that I could pass the test with full-house factory loads... probably not a dozen times in a row without a shooting glove, though. ;-)

Thanks for all the help, folks!

[TacticalReload]

Originally Posted by Erich

There's nothing magical about the #8, it's just that it has useful information for answering your question. You asked about a decent loading for your superlight/supershort .357 - I suggested that THE LOAD will give you solid controllable performance at decent pressures (same performance as many factory .357 loadings from that bbl length at lower pressures) using far less powder and with the added benefit of a case that your midget ejector rod might actually be able to clear from your frou-frou metal cylinder.

But if you want to get out the Lil' Gun and the magnum primers, be my guest: 18.0 grains of Lil' Gun is the max load for 158-grainers in the .357 Magnum. I enjoy this Lil' Gun loading quite a bit - though I wouldn't think that particular gun would maximize its effectiveness. Hey, and 15.0 grains of Lil' Gun is the max loading for 180-grain bullets - I use that load as well. Again, not what I'd choose for use in your gun, but it might be that I didn't understand what you're looking for in your original question. Either way, have fun.

Nope, you understood correctly. I was just wondering if there was some other sort of advantage to choosing this particular level of power... maybe that there are diminishing returns above this level or something, which seems might very well be true in a 2" bbl -- unburnt powder and such. Plus I'm not a masochist... at least if there isn't a point in it.

[old bear]

Sir, I do not hand load, but I have a good friend who has been doing so 40+ years, and the lode he recommended to me is 158 Gr. Hard-cast LSWC, CCI primer, 5.6 Gr. Of Bull’s-eye all of this in a .357 magnum case. From the information I have been able to gather this mix equals aprox. 1,250 FPS.
I have shot hundreds of these rounds. In my M-27 6” they are accurate, pleasant to shoot, and leaves very little in the way of led deposits. In my Taurus M-617 2,” which is closer in size and weight to your revolver, all of the above is same except there are no led deposits in the barrel.
I hope this is some help to you.

[Skip Sackett]

Originally Posted by TacticalReload

One thing I wonder about is your assessment that you won't get any more velocity out of a greater powder charge yet you will get enough of an increase in recoil to make it not worthwhile. I understand that a greater charge in a different case might not give you more velocity. However... I'm not a scientist but, like you said, based on physics, how can you get a lot bigger of a push back on your hand without an equal push forward out the barrel? It might be louder, it might be brighter, and it might occur over a shorter period of time making it feel snappier... but the whole "equal and opposite reaction" thing occurs, right?

Go here and plug numbers in where only the weight of the powder is different. Its a math thing.

Recoil Calculator

[TacticalReload]

Very interesting link. I guess the real question becomes why is the .357 mag load so inefficient vs the 38 sp load in the same gun?

[Hoptob]

TR,

You are correct, my advice to you was not about the pain tolerance but about the skill level. Glad that you are confident in your ability to shoot full house magnums in light revolvers. It took me a lot of recoil training to get there so I thought I'd just mention it.

RE: "equal and opposite reaction" thing. As usual there is more there than meets the eye. The impulse is indeed conserved but you have to account for impulse of both bullet and powder. In 2" bbl 8 gr. SR4756 in 38spl case will get you same bullet velocity as 20 gr. of H110 in 357mag case. The difference of 12 grains does not look like much in comparison to 158 gr. bullet. The catch is that (as you know) impulse is a product of mass and velocity, and velocity of expanding gas (burned powder) is much higher than velocity of the bullet. That's the reason why at the same bullet velocity your felt recoil is noticeably greater if you use more of a slow powder than less of a fast powder.

Enough physics, see you at the range,

Mike

[Paul5388]

I suppose it might make a difference in a defensive situation that SR4756 is reported to have little or no muzzle flash. Bright flash is usually as product of nitroglycerin content and SR4756 is a single based powder that doesn't contain nitroglycerin.

From this data, I suppose you may be able to draw some conclusions on the attainable velocities produced by THE LOAD out of a 2" barrel.

[TacticalReload]

Originally Posted by Hoptob

TR,

You are correct, my advice to you was not about the pain tolerance but about the skill level. Glad that you are confident in your ability to shoot full house magnums in light revolvers. It took me a lot of recoil training to get there so I thought I'd just mention it.

RE: "equal and opposite reaction" thing. As usual there is more there than meets the eye. The impulse is indeed conserved but you have to account for impulse of both bullet and powder. In 2" bbl 8 gr. SR4756 in 38spl case will get you same bullet velocity as 20 gr. of H110 in 357mag case. The difference of 12 grains does not look like much in comparison to 158 gr. bullet. The catch is that (as you know) impulse is a product of mass and velocity, and velocity of expanding gas (burned powder) is much higher than velocity of the bullet. That's the reason why at the same bullet velocity your felt recoil is noticeably greater if you use more of a slow powder than less of a fast powder.

Enough physics, see you at the range,

Mike

First off... I hope you don't think I was trying to be a "tough guy" by my saying that I think I would be able to handle it. I totally respect that it takes a lot of training to get there. What I was trying to say was that I think I'm there *because* I've had a lot of practice in shooting both high recoiling loads and more pedestrian ammo / calibers. Just for the hell of it, I spent a fair amount of time shooting IDPA with a Glock 29 loaded with full power ammo. I also messed around with developing and practicing with some .454 level loads in .45colt in my Redhawk for bowling pins. While this is a completely different "type" of recoil that I'd probably get from the 327, shooting these loads fast and accurately took some getting used to. Like I mentioned before, now that I'm no longer in my 20's when I thought recoil was cool, I tend to be more sensible with my shooting.

Secondly, I'm very interested in the physics behind the inclusion of the powder in the calculation of recoil force. I'm going to have to seek out additional information to fully understand it.

Also, when everyone is referring to "THE LOAD", are you guys loading it with LSWC? Do you think I'm going to lose enough velocity with a 158 JHP to affect the effectiveness? Are you guys getting leading with the LSWC? Just wondering if the expansion on the JHP (if it expands at these velocities) makes it more effective. I have a stash of 158 SWCHP that I use for loading up defensive ammo for my J-frame Airweights. However, I have concerns that if I push them to high velocities, the excessive explansion will limit penetration.

[GregG]

I it was me, I'd find a 158 grain cast bullet with the widest meplat, and use the 8.0 grs. of SR-4756 load from Speer #8, starting up from a lower charge of course. Montana Bullet Works offers 160 grain cast LBT that has a .285" meplat.

You'll have the penetration, and the wounding will be pretty substantial too.

[Skip Sackett]

Originally Posted by TacticalReload

Also, when everyone is referring to "THE LOAD", are you guys loading it with LSWC?

There is only one way to load "THE LOAD" dear friend, only one way. I know that isn't "PC" but it is true nonetheless!

Here is how it goes: "158gr LSWC over the starting grains of SR4756 from the Speer #8 manual in 38spl brass."

I have shot it out of my M60 -13 (all stainless J frame) and it is my PD round of choice for it. The -13 has a 3" barrel with adjustable sights. That would mean that there was just a tad more weight to it over the standard 1 7/8" model with frame sights. It is a handful but not uncomfortable to shoot out of that little gun. Mine has had about 50 rounds of that ammo through it and will probably not see any more unless someone breaks into my house!

Don't stress over the weight of the powder and the recoil calculation, with the slower powders, I have noticed they have more of a push than a sharp snap thereby reducing "PERCEIVED" recoil.

FWIW

[Paul5388]

The possum I shot with THE LOAD didn't expire immediately, so don't expect a "wonder round", regardless of how big the meplat is. A little more body mass may have altered the results, but that still remains an unanswered question for me. My preference at this point is a wadcutter in .44 Special brass for use in a M629.

None of them, including a 270 gr LSWC in .45 ACP, have exhibited the massive damage a 125 gr Sierra JHC bullet will produce. The JHC will shoot all the way through the meaty portion of Texas sized deer and still give some of the "shocking" power associated with rifle rounds, if you give it a decent amount of velocity. That doesn't mean factory velocities and it can even be done in .38 Special brass.

A 125 gr Golden Saber loaded with 10.0 gr of SR4756 will produce around 1275 fps MV out of a 4" M66 with 594 ft lbs of ME. That's within 40 fps of what Speer #8 says it will do, which makes the .38 Special much more potent in a small gun.

It's hard to argue with the success the 125 gr has had over the years in police work, so it may be the best choice in a short barreled gun using a decent powder for the application.