Looking for a really clean buring powder for 38 and 38+p mostly 38. Been using 231 an AA #2 still a little more dirty than I like.
Thanks for the help.
tbird

Consider looking at Vihta Viouri powder - considered to be a clean burning powder.

With lead/cast bullets none of them, with jacketed just about any powder listed in the manuals will be fairly clean.

Baby powder will be the best thing for some folks. No dirt, helps with chaffing.

All joking aside, since you state it "is a little more dirt than I like", what are you comparing it to? High power rifle loads with 50,000psi?

As has been stated, with lead, clean is just not going to happen. The best powder I have seen for 38spl loads and "clean" is Trail Boss, next to it is WST. That being said, you aren't going to get +P anything out of them either.

I use Bullseye and AA#2 for ALL of my target loadings. SR4756 for those +P loads in a "special" cartridge or light magnum loads in magnum cartridges. Above that, I use a MILSURP powder or H110/W296 or AA#9 for full power stuff in magnum cartridges.

All of the above loads are usually with lead bullets as I am too cheap to buy jacketed and I cast.

FWIW go online and find a link to "homemade firearms products" and look up Ed's Red Cleaner. Cheap to make and works like a dream. Just plan on cleaning your firearms after shooting them and all will be well!

Have fun and be safe.

"Just plan on cleaning your firearms after shooting them and all will be well!"


Skip's got it in one.

I've always cleaned after each use and have had no troubles with powders or bullet lubes.

Well, I say that. Once I fired about 400 rounds through a 2-inch M&P in an afternoon using a bullet lubed with something particularly vile. The lube residue actually caked up underneath the extractor giving me some uncharacteristic troubles with cylinder binding. Not being used to revolvers that hiccuped, I was concerned until I found the culprit. A scrubbing with brushes and Hoppe's No. 9 and the problem was cured. The bullets were given to me so I don't know what sort of tumble lube was used but I don't really want to encounter any more of it.

I load 2.5 grains of Clays under 148 grain HBWC's. About the cleanest shooting load for 38's I have tried.

I remember some of the older Unique which, with light lead loads was particularly dirty- leaving some half burned disks that always seemed to find their way under the extractor and foul me up. I up'd the load and crimped the h*** out of them and it alleviated the problem. However, the bore and forcing cone would still be "dirty" by some standards, but as far as lead goes- it was very clean.

Shooting cast lead will be dirty. However, some loads with certain bullets and lubes can be much better or much worse than others.

__________________
Lost it all in a boat accident

I agree with all of the above. Bullet Lube (required) results in unburned hydrocarbons (greasy dirt) when shooting cast bullets.
One point I would like to make is that loads which are light for the powder/bullet combination will tend to be dirtier.
Example: say that you find loads for powder X with a 200gr bullet starting a 8.0grs and going to 11.0grs. You will get more complete combustion with 11.0 than 8.0.
AA 2 in my experience is a relatively clean powder.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Hmmmm. I thought my W231 was clean burning and I use a light load in most of my pistol calibers.

I have used most of the "old" powders and many of the "new" ones.

Clays is one of the cleanest of all. It also shoots well in my guns. However, I have a rather large stock of other powders and even tho' they are "dirty" they are what is going to be shot.

Bullseye is NOT clean but does a fine job.

Dupont PB is not bad but not quite as clean as Clays.

Titegroup is reputed to be clean but I have not yet cracked the seal on my keg (too many others to shoot up before I open it).

231 is "middling" clean, measures well and shoots well in appropriate loads.

Unique is not particularly clean but reportedly the new cans shoot a bit cleaner (I am still shooting up old stocks).

I shoot almost entirely cast bullets. Lars' White Label Carnauba Red (my choice of bullet lube) is definitely cleaner than NRA Alox/Beeswax 50/50 but it is still bullet lube and does smoke some. It does leave the barrel clean IF a clean powder is used.

Regarding dirt under the extractor star - the proper protocol when unloading a revolver is to ALWAYS hold the revolver vertical (barrel UP) when ejecting brass. Most of the unburned powder grains will stay in the cases, eject with the cases and NOT get under the extractor.

FWIW
Dale53

Dale53, thanks for that info.

Lowpower

+1 on the Ed's Red. I tried it a few months back and I'm hooked. Cheap and effective.

Here's a link:
Ed's Red' Bore Cleaner

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Andy

Anybody know what sort of powder PMC uses in their .45ACP? My range pickups of that brand are always bright & shiny inside.

I'm guessing if the inside of the brass is clean the gun would be clean as well? Jacketed boolits, of course...

My two cents from decades of reloading ....

Using the same bullets (Speer 148 gr HBWC) and the same firearms (Clark .38 spl LSHB and S&W M14), I've progressed from BullsEye to W231 to AA2, each time getting less residue in the barrel.

VV and Clays are improvements in "clean burning", but now I've settled on WST (Winchester Super Target).

I like VV and WST because I can load .32 S&W-L also, but VV is expensive and often tough to find.

No accuracy problems with any of the powders.

MG, can you tell me your receipe for WST with your 148 HBWC equivalent to the standard 2.8 Bullseye load?

thanks in advance

2.8 BullsEye is equivalent to 3.1 W231 is equivalent to 2.65 WST in my tests. 2.5 gr WST will give a lower pressure and about 680 - 690 fps, while 2.8 gr WST bumps the pressure to 16,000 or so and velocity up to 730 - 740 fps.

Because your barrel length and twist rate may differ from mine, I suggest starting with 2.6 gr WST and dial it in to your equipment.

thanks...I will note this in my log. Now I need to find WST locally or through my travels.

Clays. Works well with 158gr LSWC's for target type loads in my Security-Six.

Use it in .40 S&W too. Not for anything like max loads though.

All the Best,
D. White

The two powders that I use the most for my and my wife's .38 Special loads are, 3.0 grains Clays and 4.0 grains W231. I don't find either one of them to be very dirty. Maybe it is just me. I use them with my cast 158 grain Lyman 358665 FN. I use White Label BAC for lube.

Accuracy is very good and clean up is no issue.

Rick

I use mostly W231 and it's very clean. I have used others too including AA#5 which is also clean.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I don't care for Clays in the 38 special . I never got the accuracy I wanted & results were eratic . It also not a forgiving powder as it builds pressure rapidly . Like Jerry Keiffer I think that W231 & WST are hard to beat in this cartridge . AA#2 also works well as does VVN 320 , VVN 340 & VVN 350 . It all depends on what bullet , velocity desired etc .
Andy

Try Vihtavouri N310 or N320,
Target loads 148 WC 2,7 gr N310 or 3,5 gr. for 145 gr for cast SWC H&G (Hensley & Gibbs) # 73.

Faster loads 4,0-4,3 grains N320 for cast H&G # 73 SWC 145 gr. Note all lead bullets will be dirty and lead the bore. This is what I have been using since -79 and the best, suitable in K & J frames and gives superb velocities. Would you fire jacketed bullets of same bullet weights, rule of thumb, loads may be increased with 5-10%.

Good luck,
Svante

Svante, I have some N310.

are you able to provide data for the

148 WC with 2.7 of N310?

FPS with barrel?
PSI or CUP?
is this a starting load?

my load all "38especial" book does not list N310 data for 148.

Looking for something equivalent to 2.8 of Bullseye.

I have one bottle of B/E left and if N310 will work, I will start using that will my B/E is gone.

thanks in advance

I checked the VihtaVuori load data site and they don't seem to have load data for N310 and a 148gr WC. They do have data for N320, N330, N340 and N350 but none for N310.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

A very clean target load for 158 gr is 3 grains of Clay's. If you are using cast bullets probably a lot of what you think is powder dirt, is really from the lubricant - which gets vaporized and blown all over.

I use Bullseye for my .38 Special loads. I don't find it particularly dirty and I usually shoot 200-300 rounds per session with a gun.

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Centennial Every Day

I switched from BE to VV N310 a few years ago and am extremely happy. I'm using 2.7gr of N310 with a 148HBWC in all 4 of my 6" K38s. Velocity runs around 760-770 fps out of all. This is equivalent to what 2.8gr of BE gives me out of these guns. I get better accuracy with the 760 fps loads than I do with the 730-740-ish FPS that 2.7 gr of BE gives me.

Yes, the VV powders are a bit more expensive than BE or 231, but you're getting 2500+ loads out of a pound of powder. At $20/lb and 2.8 gr of BE, that's .8 cents per round. At $28/lb for VV N310, it costs 1.08 cents per round. To me, .2 cents per round is a small price to pay for the much cleaner burning, and better metering VV powder.

thanks Black Talon....I am going to record that load down.

The older releoding tables listed several 38 Spl loads with N310, this is a fast powder similar to Norma R1 i.e. slightly faster than B-E, which should be closer to N320. I kept all old Vihtavuori manuals since late -70s and use them when I want to load with N310 or other N-3XXpowder loads no longer listed.

2,7 grains should be an excellent load with the 148 gr WC, a target load slightly warmer than factory stuff but still safe with margain.

Chronographed this load with a solid / cast 150 gr WC and it had a speed of approximately 750 fps from a K-38 M 14 with a 6" barrel. Also tried softer loads down to 2,4 gr with same bullet, worked nice out to 35-40 yards but further out a signs of starting keyholing. Anyway this may as well be due to the bullet, swaged hollow base bullets and cast solid bullets are two different animals. So as a starting load I would think 2,4 will serve but personally I would go 2,7 directly.

The Vihtavuori reloading manual of 1991 lists the following date for a 148 gr HBWC: 2,8 gr N310, mv 235 m/s=771 fps, @ 120 MPa=17404 psi.

Hoping the above will answer your questions.

Word of caution, due to the small charge shells will not overflow in the unlucky event of a double charge, so be careful if you use a progresssive press.

FYI I have tried a large number of handgun powder brands, European as well as US and to my opinion nothing beats Vihtavuori. They are clean burning, velocity in relation to pressure is good, span in burning rate is good and so are increments between the N300-series all the way up to the slow burning N105/N110. Since I burn so much of them I always buy them in 2,5 or 3,5 kg packs.

Hope that you will enjoy the load.

Regards,


Svante

+1 ArchAngelCD. Even the Vihtavuori-Lapua website leaves out the N210. BTW, their loading manuals cover up through 2006. Haven't seen anything more recent.

Never used AA#2 but W-231 does not burn clean with mild 38 Special loads. I prfer American Select or WST for mild loads and Trail Boss for powder puff loads.