I just bought a like new S&W model 33-1 and thinking about putting it on my carry permit.The only ammo I can find is pretty low velocity with a lead bullet .I reload so I could up the velocity with JHP bullet.I also read the Britsh had pretty good success with a 200 gr. bullet in WWII as a man stopper.Your thoughts please.

If it's the only gun you have, go for it, although I'll stir up a hornets nest by saying I don't think it's a good idea to use handloads for self defense.
If you have a choice I'd recommend at least a .38 Spl. Lot's of old (and new) J-frames out there in .38 or .357.

The British had some unique thoughts about bullet effects. They were big on something called 'dwell time' which, IIRC, was the amount of time the bullet took to traverse the body. They seemed to thing that the longer a bullet was in a body, the more damage it did, hence their infatuation with low velocity, heavy bullets. I think that one has been pretty much dispelled by now. The fact that Britain no longer uses the .38 S&W seems to indicate that even they've changed their mind.

So, the bottom line is, there are many other calibers to choose from which will do all the .38 S&W will do, and much more. But if you really have your heart set on using the .38 S&W, it will do the job if placed correctly and you can help it out by reloading.

It's not the only gun I have.Good point on reloads.Thanks

I will repeat the caveat that using reloads for self defense can lead to legal complications and that it is best to rely on factory ammunition. 38 S&W being rather out of fashion right now the only factory ammunition I know of is a 146 gr RNL. The British by the way changed their 200 gr RNL to a 178 gr FMJ to comply with the Geneva Convention.

If you look around, .38/200 ammunition can still be found, offered by small loading operations here and there.

The factory offerings from Remington, Magtech, and Winchester which feature 146gr LRN bullets are better than nothing.

Before the .38 special Chief's Specials came along, it was common to chop the barrel of an old topbreak down and use it as a pocket gun. It was the failure of these so modified to stop an assailant that led to the creation of the Chief's Special many many years ago to some degree when Rex Applegate almost got himself killed in Mexico.

I once saw some handloads that someone did up by pulling early 147 gr Remington Golden Sabre 9mm JHPs out and inserting them in nickel Super X cases. I have no idea how well they worked. These were with an Enfield Top break back when Century was bringing these in circa the mid 90s.

Your gun can take hotter loads than a top break if you do reload for it.

By happenstance, I'm restoring an old top break .38 SW that I traded some ammo for a few years back. I plan to experiment with it as a pocket gun, and have a friend interesting in making holsters for top breaks. Shrug. Some people still carry their top breaks and Terriers for various reasons.

I'd use good hand loads with cast wad cutters or semi wadcutters and
ignore the nonsense about being crucified for using lead plinking type
loads in your gun to save your life. With a strong gun you should be
able to equal 38 spl loads in a short barrel safely.

I'd venture to say that the hottest current factory load is the Fiocchi .38 S&W- they do make it in both lead and FMJ. Unfortunately, there is no hollow point factory load currently for it. Master Cartridge used to load a JHP +P for it, and I have about a half a box left- I bought it because it was less expensive than the lead Remington or Winchester at the time and it is hot. Unfortunately they no longer load this caliber and Master is now part of Georgia Arms if I remember correctly. The Fiocchi rounds seem a bit hotter, but that is just a guess and I don't have a chrony to back that up.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

There was a legal case documented by Massad Ayoob a few years ago involving a man charged with shooting his wife in which his handloads were in the gun. He claimed it was a suicide. It wasn't so much as issue of the defendant being accused of making "killer handloads" as a problem with determining the powder residue pattern with a non-factory standard load. Food for thought.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I have about had it with this case. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH HANDLODING FOR SELF DEFENSE!

There were two drunk people that had a marital spat that involved her producing a firearm. He supposedly ignored it and she supposedly took the gun to the bedroom and shot herself. Of course, the loads were so weenie that they left NO GSR on her body. WOW!

The only reason that he got pinched was because of the misleading statements he made to cops before he was read his Miranda rights and the lack of GSR evidence.

Apples to donuts friends.

No offense taken, but having been on the receiving end of high-priced legal help trying to blame me for something and covincing a jury of my "incompetence", my preference would be not to give them any ammunition to do so, pun intended.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

this cartridge about 30 years ago using .357 hollow base wad cutters. The hollow base expanded to fit the bore, and they were pretty accurate. I feel this round is much better with a flat nose of wad cutter bullet - the LRN shape is notorious for passing through, leaving a small channel and not much damage. I would not give you any of my old loads - the powders have all changed.

I have no doubt you could work up a few good defense loads with the old .38 - It killed people for many decades, and will still do that now.


If you are concerned about being sued, talk to a lawyer rather than rely on internet rumors and stories.

mark

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Liberals made the USA

It doesn't look as if Murphydog cited this example as a reason to avoid using handloads for defense, but rather to point out that the use of handloads was not used as a basis for prosecution in that particular case:

There have been numerous debates on this forum concerning whether certain practices such as ammunition choice, disabling of the internal lock, carrying multiple firearms, et cetera somehow create a greater risk of prosecution in the event one uses a firearm in self-defense. Some of the claims are purportedly backed up by actual cases, none of which have turned out to be as initially stated.

As I understand it reliability is the real concern with carrying handloads, but if the person carrying them is willing to take the risk I suppose it's their choice.

Since he has kindly explained himself. I understood what he was trying to say. I think that was very clear from his first post and the explanation he gave later. "Don't use handloads for self defense because you can give someone else ammunition against you!" (Pun intended! )

So, again, the case is a moot point in this discussion because it has no bearing on a self defense shooting, period.

As to having handloads in my firearm and functionality, I trust my custom rounds over ANY factory ammo that may have been made by Herman that had a fight with his wife after a drunken, drug filled night on the town ANY DAY!

No one is going to put more care and love into making something to assist me in protecting myself or my family than I will. I use components that are proven and tested and assemble them myself.

FWIW

I used to have a bunch of old S&W top-breaks in .38 S&W, I carried them just for giggles a few times. The round has some decent punch to it, for something that had it's heyday in the 1870's. It would be pure nostalgia to carry one for CC today, just something to do to be different or just for fun. I mean, I carried mine to places I knew there would be no chance of anything happening, like running out to the store or throwing in my glovebox before I went to work 10 miles away.

IMO for a serious defense round the .38 S&W is a poor choice. Handloading to make it "hotter"? Why not just use a .38 Special?

I really wish this wouldn't happen in every thread involving the possibility of carrying handloads for SD. I'm sick of hearing it all. (and don't tell me not to read the thread because I have no prior knowledge when everyone is going to go OT.)

Why not just stick with the subject and answer the thread?

I for one would not use a .38 S&W for SD because it's lacking in energy. Most of the revolvers are weak so the factory ammo is weak. A bullet traveling at only 600 fps is taking a chance on stopping the aggression IMO and there are many good alternatives out there. (considering the OP already stated he has other handguns) Even handloads are iffy when it comes to energy because the case is so short and pressures can spike when additional powder is added. If I were to load for the .38 S&W for SD it would be a full wadcutter bullet because it's already expanded to full caliber diameter.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

AA,
It's just so hard to resist when someone leads with their chin!

I'll work on it, promise!

As has been pointed out in other threads, even the anemic factory 38 S&W load has more energy than either 25 ACP or 32 ACP FMJ loads, both of which are still carried by a lot of people for self defense. In a real world setting I expect the soft lead bullet would make 38 S&W about the equal of 380 FMJ.

I felt the same way, although I too promise to work on it.

It would seem that the myth of being crucified for using your handloads
for self defense was put to rest by Brian Pearce in Handloader # 266.

I will carry handloads for personal defense. I'd much prefer to have to get in a gun fight with my Colt Banker's Special stoked with handloaded 158 grain lead SWCs at 725 fps than any .380 ACP pistol and load.

Having sat on a jury or two and watched Lawyers in action I think an argument could be made either way by an overzealous Lawyer.

If you reload your own ammo you're a fanatic who is trying to make ammo more powerful than what the factories produce.

If you buy specialty hollow points you're intentionally seeking the most destructive ammo available. Ammo the military is banned from using for humane reasons.

If you use ball ammo in a military caliber you are a Rambo wanna be just waiting for a chance to use it.

Someone can try and crucify you no matter what type of ammo you choose, and will if they think that is the best strategy for their case. If the verdict in your case hinges on ammo selection I suspect your claim of self defense may be precarious. However on the other hand, your case for self defense may be so strong that ammo selection is the ONLY thing the Prosecutor has to throw at you.

Exactly the point that I was going to make. So many people love the Keltec P32/PA3T/ Ruger LCP for a lady's gun, yet bash the .38 S&W and recommend a .38 Spl loaded with mid range wadcutters. Are their 'better' options than .38 S&W? Probably. Are there worse options? Certainly. It would not be my first choice, but if I had to pick up either a 33-1 with LRN or an LCP with FMJ to answer a bump in the dark, I would grab the 33-1 every time.

If you are not adverse to handloading you can really make it preform. Member Louisianaman did much work on handloading heavy .38 S&W loads, up to a 215 LFP and had some very interesting results the he posted up on several forums. Also, Ken Water's Pet Loads shows some surprisingly hot loads that he says are safe out of the solid frame guns.

Easily refuted by testifying what loading manual the load came from and the velocity specs and may have even been chronographed by the handloader. Right there, in black and white, is evidence that your reload is NOT more powerful than factory ammo. Next question.

Hollow point ammo is available over the counter to anyone who meets the legal requirements to buy ammo and also used by many police forces. Why is it being sold to the public if it can't be used?

Same argument. I bought this ammo at Wally World/Cabelas/Bass Pro. It's available to the public. Why should I not use it?

They've got to charge you with something before they can prosecute you. There is no such charge as 'using ammo of too much force' so the case is going to have to be whether you were justified in shooting. Whether you were justified in shooting has nothing whatsoever to do with what is in your gun at the time.

This has been hashed over so many times that I doubt a single person is being swayed one way or the other. Few, if any actual cases of people (who were justified in shooting in the first place) being prosecuted for the type of ammo in their gun, or any cases swayed or influenced by the ammo used have caught my eye. If there have been, I must have missed them, so if somebody wants to point to actual cases where using reloads got somebody in trouble, I'd like to read about it.

Punched in for an interesting topic. But I found that I missed the news on the latest hijacking.

It happens every time. Post #2 said he'd probably stir up a hornet's nest.

He did.

I'll go sit in the corner now.

No, I didn't mean to call you out. It's no big deal; if you hadn't done it, someone else would have.

The obvious question is, how would the prosecution even know you used handloads? Does a handloaded .38 S&W in factory brass look any different than a factory round......I think not.....there's no law against handloading, and if you are a legal CCW permit holder I see no case against you.

If anything using .38 S&W would be an irrefutable case of NOT using "too much gun", no one would be accused of being a "Rambo" using a low powered .38 round that was developed over 140 years ago.

It's not like you were carrying a .500 in a shoulder holster and unleashed rounds inside a 7-11 blowing away the armed robber and everyone else within 2 miles behind him

The 38 S&W round is not the best choice for self defense, however bullet placement is the most critical factor in a shooting. Two to the heart and one to the head works every time. If I had a choice, I would use a round with more power than the 38 S&W (don't forget alot of bad guys have been done in with a 22lr) Back in WW11, the government, used a lot of 38 S&W revolvers to guard defense plants. I have a S&W Victory Model that is marked "US PROPERTY" It is one of my favorite guns, but I don't use it for self protection because I have better choices available for that use.

The .38 S&W used to be acceptable for self defense, until all the expert gun writers, that never killed anything in their lives, said it didn't have enough killing power.

I would stick with SWCs though, as it may not have enough potential energy to reliably expand hollow points that are not specifically designed for lower velocities. As others may have mentioned, the maximum pressures are fairly low to make shooting old top breaks safer. If you are worried about this and want higher velocities, data is available that exceeds current SAAMI pressure specs.

I personally know of an instance where a fellow got drunk and tried to commit suicide by shooting himself in the chest twice with a 4" revolver, chambered in 38 S&W. He survived. I wouldn't consider any firearm for personal protection chambered in that caliber.

Shot placement trumps cailber any day of the week. I would not feel inadequately armed with a .38 S&W

The poor little .38 S&W got a bad rap becuase it came available when factory ammo was in it's infancy and quality control was not invented yet.Subsequently lots of not so good ammo was produced with varying degrees of efficiency.There has been something of a resurgence of interest in .38 S&W.There is gentleman from Louisana who has done some pretty impressive testing with various loads Penetration has been impressive as well with properly loaded handloads.I'll trust my .38 S&W over any Mini Mag .22.
It was the mainstay for many a Police Dept. all across the U.S. for many years,must some redeeming qualities,beats alot of other cartridges.

I would not recommend the 38 S&W for self defense, primarily because the more proven and available .38 special is available in so many revolvers these days. You can bump up the ante to the +P 38 special loads or jump to the .357 magnum, probably the best choice for a concealed carry or home defense. The 38 S&W is archaic, the guns often unreliable, and ammo is often scarce. Also it is an odd-ball caliber to reload, and unless you reload don't know how you could shoot it enough to become proficient. note- Page 453 was the penetration I got (approx 7/8 inch) when I fired a Western 146 grain factory load into a soft cover catalogue out of a vintage 4 inch breaktop 38 S&W. I think that is much better performance than the nuts who tried to shoot Teddy Roosevelt, Garfield and others who survived point blank attacks. I carried the S&W mod 36 in 38 spec for many years as a federal officer, and we upgraded to the 45 auto after about ten years when we found "double-tapping" was no longer enough. Later we switched again, this time to the 9mm, which seemed more aimed at staying with a semiauto cal and getting more shots in the magazine. My experience was that with the rampant proliferation of bulletproof vests, none of these were really a sure thing in a shootout with the armed guys we were up against. Saw many afolk hit with all these rounds, and with the double tap they always went down.. Problem was, with the 38 spec and 9mm they often got back up and continued the fight or ran off. I carried the 45 acp off duty, only cause I was so familiar with it. Later switched to the S&W in .357, using premium factory loads. It will defeat the earlier vests and even with the best vest available it will give you time to figure out your next move. It is too much gun for some folks, so then I would drop back to the 38 spec.

I have one of the last of these made in the 1970's. I have a load using AutoComp that produces 1,000 fps using a 145 gr. SWC. I wouldn't consider that to be particularly weak. Factory 38 S&W ammo is loaded very weak because a good many of the guns were actually intended for BP loads. But if you have a modern gun there is no reason this caliber wont work for self defense.

There is published data for cast handloads that push a 133 grain bullet at over 900 fps, and a 158 gr at over 800 fps. These are measured velocities 15' from the muzzle out of a 4" M-31 S&W.

I don't consider either one of these loads to be underpowered.

When I did the article that ended up being published in the Gun Digest 2011 Annual, I did alot of work seeing how powerful the .38 S & W truly is. While I agree it is better than nothing, compared to even the .38 Special, it is abysmal. I took an old metal children's sled and three old rounds of FMJ British ammo, the best stuff available for that caliber, and only two of the rounds penetrated that metal sled. Remember before you handload the .38 s & W that while you can use bullets for the .38 Special, don't expect any decent accuracy because the bullet diameter is .361 and not .358 (a common problem when guys fire converted Victory model guns). If you want, I can PM you a scan of the article. I did it using a pre-Victory M & P.

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Vaya con Dios

No, those 2 loads are not anemic but most .38 S&W loads are. Have you even shot factory .38 S&W ammo which is mostly loaded with a 145gr LRN bullet? (you know, the widow maker bullet) When you look up the word anemic there's a picture of that ammo next to it...

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Deleted...

I think a slightly hopped up .38 S&W would make a good carry weapon. They are small and light enough for sure.

Just be ready to pull the trigger more than once.

It's a good thing I caught the date on this thread, I almost stepped in something nasty.

For anyone that wants or needs to carry a .38 S&W, remember that velocity isn't nearly as important as bullet shape. Hollow points are way over rated, thanks to the ammo industry that wants to make sure you pay the most for your ammo as possible, that's how they make their profits.

And just for the record, there isn't one handgun caliber that I'd trust with one shot. Unless I'm shooting at balloons or paper targets.

Speer bookm #10 shows some 38S&W loads using the 148 gr HBWC and the 158gr SWC. They're not esp hot-looks like you'd be lucky to bust 700fps with any of them out of a 2-incher.

Me too. I carry 158gr SWC-HP "target loads" in my 2" j-frames.

Wow! resurrecting a thread that died three years ago.

I have followed this thread from th begining and have come to the conclusion that either you love this cartridge or you hate it. I for one love it and do carry it on occassion. Is it my first choise, that depends on what im wearing. When I do carry it, it is stoked with 125 gr. bufdfalo bore wadcutters.I also carry a 1903 colt 32 acp, A mod. 31 with Buffalo Bore 32 S&W long . I also have bigger Calibers that I carry but again that depends on what im wearing. Im not looking to get into a gun fight im looking to avoid one. And the funny thing is every one that says why do you carry that little girls gun, has never offered to stand in front of me while i pull the trigger. Just my 2 cents.

That's a Massad Ayoob postion I don't think matters any more. IF one is in a shooting situation and happens to use handloads, if the police feel the shooting is justified, handloads will not cause a complication. The United States Supreme court already covered this ground....whether you kill someone with a factory .38 special or a home-made 40mm grenade is irrelevant IF your actions meet the test for self defense. You can run over someone with your car in self-defence...chew their *** up into ground burger patties and walk away clean as long as your STORY matches your ACTIONS!
Considering the FACT that most store-bought ammo loaded by the "big name" makers is lame at best...choosing to roll your own makes sense...if the circumstance so your shooting situation don't add up to "murder" with factory ammo, they won't add up to "murder" with handloads....

WOW! I got a "LIKE" for something I wrote almost 4 years ago!

Funny thing is, I have a few more old Smith top breaks now, including a pair of New Departures both from 1910...loaded, up in my money drawer.

...along with a loaded 65-2...as a backup.

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Liberals made the USA

I have been reading a lot of these old and new threads in search of the collective wisdom of the forum. I, like many of you, have many choices for concealed carry. I do carry my two Terriers on occasion, as well as my much older Colt Bankers Special (which, by the way was a Boston Police Department issued gun, and is so marked, so they at one time they must have thought it adequate). I also have many Colt and Smith snubbies in 38 special, and even a modern J frame magnum, a M&P 340 .357 mag ( no lock version, I refuse to own a Smith that has been defaced by that keyhole), which weighs less than even the Terrier at 13 point something oz. Certainly that would be considered adequate by most folks for self defense. But.... There is just something attractive to me and I'll bet many of you folks also, about the craftsmanship and attention to detail that went into the older firearms that give them a special panache which the newer and perhaps more efficient and powerful creations lack. Just my two cents worth, it would be a pretty dull world if we all agreed on everything. By the way, I'm sure that all of the other LEO's out there will agree, we've all seen dead guys that got that way with .22's and .25's. I also know at least one guy that was shot through the chest in a bar fight with a .44 Mag, and was back to work in a month or so. Shot placement trumps most other things when it comes to shootings. Whew!!!

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Buffalo bore has a swc load for 38 s&w that sounds reasonable.