After a lot of searching on several forums, I still don't have an answer to this question, so I thought I'd ask here.

I shoot 200 grain .45ACP RNFP in my model 625 because the rounded bullet nose decreases my reload times. Chambers on the gun are highly chamfered (think small funnels). I have about 3000 200 grain SWC bullets that I used to use in my 1911s. They do not work well in the 625 because the edges hang up on the chamber mouths. I've done some experimentation with heavy taper crimp at the sharp forward edge of the bullet, and it improves things somewhat - it only takes a bit of wriggling to get the moon-clipped rounds to drop in.

Thus my question - if I apply a heavy roll crimp over the front edge of the bullet, will that round things up enough to prevent the cartridges from hanging up on the chamber entrances? I'm not concerned with the loss of headspace capability at the front of the cartridge - these will be revolver-only. RCBS makes a .45ACP roll crimp die that's fairly inexpensive, so I will probably get one and try it, unless I get some information from you folks that it won't work.

I appreciate any comments.

Buck

About the only bullet I have found that reloads in my 625 I compete with is a 230 grain roundnose. These drop right in with no wiggling at all. Everything else I tried, especially 200 grain swc's hung up on the chamber edges and mine has been tuned and the cylinders chamfered too. I'm going to use the swc's in light 45 Colt loads.

Basically,RN and TC bullets are for speedloading and clip loading.
SWC and clip loading don't mix, no matter how much you fiddle and fool.

__________________
Science plus Art

The bullet diameter is less than the roll crimp diameter, so you can crimp them till the cows come home and it won't make a difference.

How about simply seating those 200gr.SWC's cutting edge flush with the case. Taper crimp at .469-.470 and be done with it. If these clipped rounds don't drop in as smoothly as you like, you will probably have to settle for a round-nose style bullet. I generally don't think much of folks putting any roll crimp on bullets that do not have cannelures. I even use a Redding taper crimp die to crimp 148gr HBWC's for bullseye shooting in a K-38. I get into these debates with other bullseye shooters that use a "light" roll crimp for their HBWC rounds. I maintain: NO CANNELURE.......NO ROLL CRIMP!...........all this does in a low velocity, soft lead target load is deform the bullet. Guess who holds the local club record in the monthly Harry Reeves match?

Roll crimps are for revolver rounds, period. If you want to try it, go ahead. The worst thing you will do is waste a bit of time and effort. Besides, playing is fun.

I have shot PPC for a few years. Scoring can be a pain when you use RN bullets. I remember the guy that was the big dog of the block when I started giving me a berating for using them when I first started. I watched him. He was using SWC and at 70 he could still beat me (40ish) at the 7 yard line in both score and time!

12 rounds in 18 seconds all double action with LSWC bullets. I figured if that old man could do it, so could I. All I needed was some practice. Guess what, after a few weeks and a lot of loading with dummy rounds, of course from speed loaders, and I was getting 12 rounds off, with a score of 120 in about 14 seconds. You have to go faster than that?

I doubt it.

Try other moon clips that hold the rounds tighter. Practice, practice, practice. If your chambers are already "funneled" everything should be OK with a SWC too.

I like the idea of taper crimping these at the end of the driving band better than a roll crimp for the reasons others have mentioned.

FWIW

Due to varying brass case lengths crimping over the front shoulder / edge of the bullet will be a variable also but it doesn't hurt to try. Use up and diddle with them or sell / trade the SWC and get TC or RN.

I'm not necessarily recommending the procedure, but I've tried roll crimping and it works fine with .45 ACP revolver or semi-auto loads. It's certainly best to limit roll crimping to bullets with a crimp groove. I'd try both roll crimp and taper crimp and go with whatever is most accurate, that is if you can see a difference. I've seen (very slightly) better accuracy with a taper crimp.

Roll crimping .45 ACP used to be a lot more popular than it is today. I used to have a Star press set up for .45 ACP that came only with a roll crimp.

The well known 1911 gunsmith and Bullseye competitor Alton Dinan wrote a very comprehensive article in the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN in the mid-'60s (I think) about accuracy loads for the .45 ACP using roll crimped ammo (I think he tried some taper crimped also) and tested everything for accuracy at 50 yards.

Some may criticize the roll crimp procedure without ever having tried it. It's worth trying before condeming roll crimps. My only suggestion would be to use a minimal crimp whether roll crimping or taper crimping.

If you are using them in moon clips, you don't have to worry about headspace issues as the clip is setting the headspace, not the case mouth. Try seating the SWC so that the forward ledge is just at the case mouth then roll away. That will give you a little roundness on the case mouth to help it funnel in. Of course those rounds will probably seat too deeply in a pistol chamber to work properly and they probably won't work in your 625 if you're trying to load them individually without any kind of clip. I used to roll crimp for my 625 but I started using a Lee taper crimp die and it seems to work just about as good when it comes to speed reloads. I think YMMV with that but it's a good option if it works for you. I eventually gave all of that up and went with auto rim cases and speed loaders and haven't looked back.

I taper crimp ALL revolver rounds, and always have. For 40 years. Never had problems with bullets in adjacent chambers telescoping out under recoil. Taper crimping makes variations in case largely irrelevant.
As for the gun, try chamfering the chamber mouths a very small amount AFTER removing the extractor star from the gun/cylinder. You do not want to mess with that (the star ).

The OP's question is about problems reloading a REVOLVER...

Jus' sayin'...

Cheers!

__________________
Sit Reloader Sentiret

I still don’t get ACP in a revolver, especially if one reloads…

__________________
Richard

Goes all the way back to WWI. As I understand it they couldn't produce enough 1911's fast enough so they got S&W and Colt to produce large-frame revolvers that used the same ammo as the 1911.

FWIW, some people like 9mm in revolvers for pretty much the same reason - cheap ammo compatible with both revolvers and semi-autos.

__________________
Send lawyers, guns & money...

Lee factory crimp die works good,

That's all true, but you forgot the comma after the words "understand it." When combining two independent clauses with a conjunction, you're supposed to also use a comma. It just makes reading your post easier if you don't have run on sentences.

Just sayin...

Yes, and in a revolver the .45 ACP round headspaces on the case mouth. Do not roll-crimp.

__________________
Pisgah

Only if they are being loaded individually. If they are in a clip, the headspace is determined by the clip and the rim. In that instance, case length/crimp doesn't matter.

My 1911’s get nothing but 230 grain ball ammo. The work flawlessly. Give them a shot.

Heck you could roll crimp the LSWCs the same way. I’ve certainly done that for revolvers, .38 Special and .45 ACP.

FWIW the Redding Profile Crimp Die more or less combines a taper crimp with a very controllable roll crimp. Might be worth a try.

If your statement is true, please explain this? I shoot 40 S&W in a model 610, using full moon clips!
jcelect

I didn't notice anyone questioning this aspect. You're saying that the bullet is contacting the leade going into the cylinder throat and won't allow the round to fully chamber?

The answer is SPEED OF RELOADING! A full moon clip makes it much faster to get the rounds into the chamber than any speed loader made today! Just ask Jerry! A second benefit of the full moon clip is it applies even pressure from the ejector to all six rounds at the same time and the ejector can't jump the rim of a stuck cartridge case.
jcelect

The adoption of 45acp revolvers and half moon clips didn't have anything to do with speed of reloading. As the US was about to get into WW1 in 1917, they had no where near enough 1911's. Most of the arms manufacturers were busy making guns for other countries who had been fighting since 1914. Rifle production was more of a priority so not a lot of service pistols had been built up to 1917. As the US appraised their manufacturing capacity, they found that there was no way they would be able to tool up to produce the necessary 1911's for their entry into the war. The solution was to look at altering guns that were already in production. Colt had the New Service large frame revolvers and Smith had what would one day become the N frame revolver. It was simple enough to change their existing tooling to cut the proper barrels and chambers. The problem was that the Army was buying 45acp ammo and wanted their handguns chambered to fire it. Although it was simple enough to cut chambers and barrels, ejecting a rimless round from a swing open revolver was problematic. Enter Joseph Wesson, Daniel's son. He came up with and patented the half moon clip. Each clip holds 3 rounds and engages with the extractor star, which allows the rounds to be removed from the chamber using the ejector rod. The concept of the half moon clip, and later the 1/3 moon and full moon clips came about because of extraction, not loading. The Army wanted the gun to be usable without the clips in a emergency. Imagine being in a WW1 trench with a pocket full of loose 45's and no clips. To accommodate that, a shoulder is machined into the chambers so that a round without a clip will headspace high enough to be fired. Colt had a lot of New Service, 45 Colt cylinders on hand so to get a jump on production, they started with those. The early Colt's will not fire an individual 45 because they lack the ledge inside the chambers. Shortly after the war ended, the government declared all of the 1917 revolvers surplus. They were committed to the 1911 and had no interest in revolvers. Hundreds of thousands were sold off to the public. In 1925, the Peter's ammo company came up with the 45 Auto Rim so that the guns would function better without the clips. I do not believe that any company specifically chambered a revolver in 45AR. The full moon clip would come along later and I believe in response to the use of 45ACP revolvers in the action games that started to become popular in the 60's and 70's. So the main purpose of the clip was to provide a way to eject rounds. Although Smith's have the ledge inside the chambers to allow single loading and firing, when you drop in a clip full of ammo the clip is what keeps the base of the round against the recoil shield and sets the head space and the mouth of the case is a couple of thousands off the ridge so it has no role. That is why you can heavily roll crimp 45's that will be used in this manner.

I use a roll crimp on my 45 auto rim brass with a 255 swc. in Sw and Colt 1917.

Joseph Wesson and his team also came up with the original full moon clip.



The Army wisely selected the simpler, easier to manufacture, load and ship 1/2 moon clip.

As for making a revolver specifically for the 45 Auto Rim, I do not believe that is possible as the AR cartridge duplicates the ACP round with the clip attached.

Kevin

__________________
Unshared knowledge is wasted.

SERIOUSLY?!? That is the most significant contribution you can make to this conversation? A correction of someone else's PUNCTUATION?!?!

What are you, a high school English teacher?!?

Forgive me for saying this, but if that is all you have to offer, then GET A LIFE. Maybe you should sit back and listen to the conversation between the adults in the room.

You might just learn something if you stop trying to convince everyone that you are the smartest person in the room (hint: You AREN'T, and frankly, neither am I).

Anyway, JMO, and YMMV...

__________________
Send lawyers, guns & money...

It's an interesting discussion that will stay open...

But the thread just celebrated its 13th birthday and the OP has been gone for 5 1/2 years. RIP Haggis.

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I for one am embarrassed. I didn’t even look at who the OP was - and he was very helpful to me on several occasions.

You said it better than I could have. Oh, the irony of it all. I agree 100% with everything you just said about yourself in the above quote. There's nothing further for us to discuss. You made my point for me. Happy Holidays.

LOL! Touche'

My apologies for having hurt your feelings.

__________________
Send lawyers, guns & money...

Everything old is new again. There's always a lot of lore around the clip and it never really seems to run out of gas. Maybe some new shooter who thinks that this is a new, cool idea that originated with their 9mm J frame will take the time to read some of these posts. Where else on the inter web can you learn about Joseph Wesson and proper punctuation in the same thread?

Great post. I'm not sure that I ever saw that patent drawing. Looking at the design it's not hard to think that they may have been a little too fragile for the Army.

I have looked, without success, for the patent on the 1/2 moon clip.

Kevin

__________________
Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Crimping over the driving band has been done for years in revolvers so I don't see why it wouldn't work in the 45ACP cases with the 200gr L-SWC bullets that the Op was wanting to use up.

A moderately rounded roll crimp over the shoulder should allow the rounds to slip in the chamber mouths easy enough if they're held tightly in the moonclips.
.

I use the Redding Profile Crimp die for my 45 Auto Rim loads when I load Sierra's 240gr JHC in them.

That's the heaviest bullet I prefer to use in these short cases.

.



.
.



.
.



.
.
.

When I want to use a heavier bullet in my 325TR is swap over to my stainless steel 45WSM cylinder.
.


.
.



.
.



.

__________________
Waiting for the break of day

The only concern I'd have with roll crimping over the shoulder of the SWC bullet would be that you'd be seating them a lot deeper, and that would significantly reduce the interior volume in the case. That's going to raise the pressure. Not as much as with a 9mm, but still enough to be significant. I'd definitely reduce the powder charge to the bare minimum and shoot a few over a chrony to see if the velocity numbers line up with the predicted velocity that the book predicts for the load.

__________________
Send lawyers, guns & money...

I wouldn't do that either without adequate experimentation. Most of the time, however, if I used a roll crimp for .45 loads, I would use a bullet design with a crimp groove. Plenty of them out there, cast or jacketed.

Agreed.

Like so many other variables we can introduce into our handloads anybody who's knowledgeable in the craft should know changing the COAL" from it's recipe's length needs to make corresponding adjustments.

.

__________________
Waiting for the break of day

Yes, lots of options but the Op wanted to use his surplus 200gr L-SWCs, not buy new bullets instead.

.

__________________
Waiting for the break of day

Yes, the 45AR, with its fat rims, are made to fit the M1917/25/625 45ACP models.

Making a revolver for the 45AR would be a M1917/25/625.

Now taking Starline's purpose made 45 Cowboy Special Brass, with its .45 Colt rim and .45 Auto length, would require some tweaks from a 45ACP architecture.

.

__________________
Waiting for the break of day

I thought I covered that when I mentioned I wouldn't do what he wanted to do without adequate experimentation.

The 45 Cowboy Special works well in my Italian Single Action revolver with either the 45 ACP or the 45 long Colt cylinder in place. They also work well in my Model 1917 through Model 625-6 45 ACP Mountain Gun as I taper crimp them.

Kevin

__________________
Unshared knowledge is wasted.

My understanding is that current production S&W .45 ACP revolver cylinders are reamed without the headspace ledge, requiring the use of moon clips. My 22-4 is this way.

I've gone to coated lead bullets for almost all my reloading. Loading the new style coated 230-grain RNLs without a crimp groove turned my 22-4 into a kinetic bullet puller - I never made it to six rounds, the last one pulled apart by shot #5. I switched to 225-grain RNFPs with a crimp groove and used a Redding profile crimp die. That solved the problem and hit to the same POA. Factory jacketed ammo, including both FMJ and HST 230-grain +P, doesn't come apart.

__________________
Regards,

Chuck

And that's a good rule of thumb to follow.

HOWEVER, as Bluedot37 observed, the OP has a bunch of 200 gr 45 SWCs that he's wanting to load up and use in his M625 revolver.

So while your answer is great in general, it isn't really applicable to the OPs specific question - which is the topic of this thread.

__________________
Send lawyers, guns & money...

Okay, I can see that in the SAA 45 Colt cylinder.

In the M1917/625s the 45 CS case rim will be about .040" above the face of the cylinder (a gap) since the case mouth's taper crimp it'll be headspacing on the chamber ledge/shoulder, not the rim, if it's case length is the same as a 45ACP, right?

No ideal if the head strength of the 45CS is as strong as a 45ACP's, since it's a revolver cartridge which normally is fully supported, but I guess with low pressure loads it's not a problem?

.

__________________
Waiting for the break of day

Years ago I had a 45 Colt/45ACP 625 convertible. I never fired a Colt round in it while I owned it. The store owner who had it, sold me 200 new 45AR cases for a very nice price. I had many moon clips, and loaded many ACP's for it, but the AR rounds became my go-to's for years. Wish I still had it. A fun gun to shoot, and sometimes I found very accurate loads, usually 225-250 SWC's.

__________________
Heavily armed old man.

S&W isn't currently making any 45ACP revolvers but of my three (made between 2008-2016) all have chamber shoulders/ledges, plus the extra cylinder I purchased for Project 45WSM recently.

What year was your 22-4 made?

I read in a 2008 Handloader article that Brian Pearce said a decade or so earlier that S&W produced a batch of revolvers without chamber shoulder/ledges & that eliminated 45ACP rounds from being firing individually in them.

He reported in an earlier issue that after WWII they had a similar issue so while they've generally been okay apparently they've had some bumps in the road on this.

PS: I see the 22-4 was re-introduced in Oct-2005.

.

__________________
Waiting for the break of day

I have 3 of the Model 22-4 revolvers. Two of the three (both have 4” barrels) can shoot ACP ammunition WITHOUT moonclips. The third one? I have not tried it!



Here is the sidebar from the article,



Kevin

__________________
Unshared knowledge is wasted.

You beat me to it, Handloader #254.

I had found several articles & was going to post that info too. Thanks.

.

__________________
Waiting for the break of day

I type with TWO fingers!!

Please post what you found. Sharing knowledge makes sure it is not lost.

Kevin

__________________
Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Here's an excerpt from another article that I pasted together on the subject:

.



.

__________________
Waiting for the break of day