38 Short Colt

[CompetitorFirst]

Hello everyone, i want to start reloading the 38 Shirt colt for competitions to use with my 686-3. I can’t find anything on the internet nor books or powder websites. I wanted to use Vihtavuori powder , someone has suggestions or recipes for this ammo? I also will have some issues in setting the Lee Dies for 38 Short Colt, becouse i can’t get any already made bullets that helps me to set the screw, someone has a tutorial or good suggestions about that too? Thanks a lot !

[Moo Moo]

Protocall Design told me this recently when I was asking about IPSC loads for my 627-5:-

The 627 will be great for what you want to do. The current trend is to go with short cases like 38 Super, 38 Short Colt, or 38 Long Colt. Most times, 38 Super will fit an unmodified .357 chamber, especially if it has been resized during the reloading process.

You will need to match the moonclips to the brass, especially on rimmed cases. There is no SAMMI spec for the groove above the rim on rimmed brass, so groove diameters vary quite a bit. I use all Starline brass, and TK Custom moonclips for Starline brass. The grooves on the Starline brass are uniform for all the 38 cases, which includes 38 SC, 38 LC, 38 Special, and .357 Mag. That way, I can use the same moon clip with all of them.

Don't put moonclips in pouches. Too hard to dig them out. Use something with a post that goes in the center of the clip so you can grab the outside of the clip/ammo assembly.

It is good to use a heavy bullet. Many are using a 160 gr. polymer coated round nose. Many commercial bullet makers have those. Bullet weight is King on reactive targets, especially the larger Pepper Poppers and other heavy targets. You want to run around 850 - 900 fps. min. for good knockdown (around here, anyway, your targets may be different). You want a full roundnose for best reloads. Any flat on the bullet nose will hang up a reload occasionally.

You can use a trap/skeet shooter's shell bag for a dump pouch. It goes right on your belt and has 2 compartments, one for loaded rounds and one for empty.
__________________
Protocall Design

[Moo Moo]

So, based on this, I spoke with a local IPSC Revolver shooter who used .38 Short Colt loads for his 627-5. He used 160 gr Round Nose bullets with 3.4g of AP70 powder (Australian made powder) and a oal of 1.200". He also uses Federal Small primers.

[BLUEDOT37]

Originally Posted by CompetitorFirst

I wanted to use Vihtavuori powder , someone has suggestions or recipes for this ammo?

Since the 38SC is just ~.007" longer than 9mm Luger (9x19) brass, I'd think that would be the best place to start looking for recipes. If you load bullets of the same weight & seating depth in the 38SC you should be good.

I would expect Starline 38SC brass is as strong as their 38 Spcl (+P) brass (maybe stronger?) but you might ask them what they rate them to.

.

[CompetitorFirst]

Thank you for the infos guys! Someone know how to set the Dies on my lee turret ? i will get the 38 short colt dedicated dies but without an already made bullet idk how to set the screw.

For the Recipes : if someone has some Vihtavuori experience with this it would be appreciated

[AzShooter]

Use 9 mm data for your 38 short colts and you will have no problem. My favorite powder is Vihtavorie N320.

[dannyabear]

Isn't the short colt the same as a 38 s & w?

[Protocall_Design]

Originally Posted by dannyabear

Isn't the short colt the same as a 38 s & w?

No. The 38 S&W has a fatter case. The Short Colt and Long Colt are the same diameter as a 38 Special, 357 Mag., etc.

[Protocall_Design]

Originally Posted by CompetitorFirst

Thank you for the infos guys! Someone know how to set the Dies on my lee turret ? i will get the 38 short colt dedicated dies but without an already made bullet idk how to set the screw.

For the Recipes : if someone has some Vihtavuori experience with this it would be appreciated

Most 38 Special die sets won't go down far enough for seating and crimping on Short Colt. Most people are using a 38/357 size die and 9mm for the rest of the dies.

To set seating depth from scratch, run the seating plug up so it is clear of the bullet when the case and bullet are all the way up. Then screw the plug down so it seats the bullet too high. Measure the overall cartridge length with a caliper. Keep seating the bullet a little deeper until the OAC length is what you want. Lock the seating plug at that depth.

[rockquarry]

Seems 9mm data would be loaded to much higher pressures and the case much stouter even if the .38 S&W case and the 9mm are similar in dimensions. Is using 9mm data safe?

[murphydog]

Originally Posted by rockquarry

Seems 9mm data would be loaded to much higher pressures and the case much stouter even if the .38 S&W case and the 9mm are similar in dimensions. Is using 9mm data safe?

The OP wants to use these loads in a model 686. Probably wouldn’t use 9 mm loads in an original .38 Short Colt revolver.

[S&WIowegan]

Originally Posted by rockquarry

Seems 9mm data would be loaded to much higher pressures and the case much stouter even if the .38 S&W case and the 9mm are similar in dimensions. Is using 9mm data safe?

Just to repeat with emphasis!!! The 38 S&W case/cartridge is NOT the same as 38 Short Colt nor 9mm. The diameter of 38 S&W is larger and the round was/is utilized in old top break Smith & Wesson revolvers.

The purpose for the 38 Short Colt in modern guns is to use it in competition revolver shooting with moonclips. The short case makes for fast extraction and insertion into the cylinder. Most do not hot load 38 Short colt ammo. I use 3.0gr of Vihtavouri N310 and a 160 gr coated lead bullet. This load makes minor power factor.

[GeoJelly]

Although I don't load any heavy bullets, I use 9mm data - as mentioned above by several Gents - for my .38 SC loads ... with the big caveat that I reduce 9-mil loads by 20% to start off. I have found the Speer 110-g GDHP to be pretty accurate and shoot to point of aim. The round shown used 4.4-g of Universal. I really like the SC's in my snubs because the short cases eject easily and are a breeze to load using HKS speedloaders.

[rockquarry]

I understand the point now, but the cartridge case itself is usually the weakest link in the overall scheme. Perhaps these cases are built of stronger materials these days. Many starting 9mm loads will normally be loaded well above 20,000 psi or so.

[CompetitorFirst]

Originally Posted by AzShooter

Use 9 mm data for your 38 short colts and you will have no problem. My favorite powder is Vihtavorie N320.

Can you suggest me some recipes with that powder? i think i will use 158gr RN copper jacket

[CompetitorFirst]

Originally Posted by Protocall_Design

Most 38 Special die sets won't go down far enough for seating and crimping on Short Colt. Most people are using a 38/357 size die and 9mm for the rest of the dies.

To set seating depth from scratch, run the seating plug up so it is clear of the bullet when the case and bullet are all the way up. Then screw the plug down so it seats the bullet too high. Measure the overall cartridge length with a caliper. Keep seating the bullet a little deeper until the OAC length is what you want. Lock the seating plug at that depth.

Thank you a lot for the tips, do you know the correct length for a 38 SC with RN 158gr bullet?

[Protocall_Design]

The correct seating depth depends a lot on the type of powder and the powder charge. In general, deeper seating will raise pressures, less seating will lower pressures, with a given powder charge. Some loads are OK with a compressed charge, some are not.

Rule of thumb - pressure = velocity. There are exceptions to every rule. If you have a chronograph, you can work up loads that will do what you want in a safe pressure zone. If you stay under 1100 FPS and over 850 FPS, you should be in pretty good shape.

[AzShooter]

Originally Posted by CompetitorFirst

Can you suggest me some recipes with that powder? i think i will use 158gr RN copper jacket

It's been a while. I switched to 9mm but I think 3 grains with the 158s should do it. Remember, start at least 10% below and work up. Having a chronograph is your best friend.

[BLUEDOT37]

FWIW, I sent Starline a question last night, just out of curiousity, & asked them how strong their 38SC brass are. They responded this morning & said they are made from their 38 Special/38 Special (+P) brass (both are the same strengh) & rated at 20K CUP/20K PSI.

He also said he's "certain it could hold up to higher pressure than that in a suitable firearm, but we have not tested it for those pressures. The .357 Mag is a more stoutly built case than the 38 Special & 38 Special (+P)."

.

[CompetitorFirst]

very interesting, it would be useful to create a mini chart of recipes about 38 SC , there is nothing on internet and it’s a very cool and sportive useful ammo

[Jellybean]

CompetitorFirst, the reason you can't find data on the internet for the .38 Short Colt is because nobody is loading ammunition for the .38 Short Colt, in spite of what is written on the brass. Basically it's "wildcatting", without the need to reform the brass, and making something for a particular purpose. I don't know why none of the competitors are trimming the .38 SC brass down and using .380 data, but then I'm not a gamer.

Anyway, the .38 Short Colt is long obsolete and was originally loaded with black powder and an outside lubricated, heel based bullet of about .375" diameter. Older references I have list a 125-130 grain bullet over 2.5 grs. of Bullseye or 14-15 grs. of FFG black powder. Ideal Handbook no. 24 listed bullet no. 358159 for the .38 Short Colt. There are a couple other powders that were listed but are long discontinued.

If you were to put a list of recipes on the internet for ".38 Short Colt" using high pressure loads, you would run the risk of some inexperienced shooters finding an old .38 SC revolver in an attic and loading it way over pressure, like the two geniuses I saw on a video that found an old top break .32...poor gun.

[Jellybean]

Originally Posted by rockquarry

I understand the point now, but the cartridge case itself is usually the weakest link in the overall scheme. Perhaps these cases are built of stronger materials these days. Many starting 9mm loads will normally be loaded well above 20,000 psi or so.

It's not stronger materials that makes the difference it's in the design of the solid head. Which cartridge designation that is stamped on the head makes little difference as to what is stuffed inside of it, as long as the case is properly supported by the chamber. One thing to be careful of is making sure you know what is inside of non-standard loads. You can load .38 SC brass to .357 mag pressures, but they will still fit into a revolver chambered for .38 Short Colt, Long Colt or S&W Special.

[rockquarry]

Are there drawbacks to using cartridges the 686 was designed for?

[S&WIowegan]

Originally Posted by rockquarry

Are there drawbacks to using cartridges the 686 was designed for?

I'm not sure I even understand your question, but the answer is "of course not"!

[AzShooter]

Originally Posted by rockquarry

Are there drawbacks to using cartridges the 686 was designed for?

Yes. When shooting for speed and you want your reload to be as fast as it can be the .38 Short Colt loads much faster. I could easily do reloads around 1 1/2 seconds using moon clips and 38 SC brass.