A friend of mine who always sounds authoritative and knowledgable , but rarely is,
has told me that the use of home made ammo in a shooting incident is cause for the innocent shooter to be prosecuted by the law.
I wonder if any of you fine Truly knowledgable folks have heard of such BS?

absolute bs, i am retired law enforcement, the scummy lawyers can use it against you if the person you shoot sues in a civil case , but nothing crimminal about reloaded ammo.

As far as I know there is no law against it. This has been discussed quite a bit here, and people believe strongly on both sides of the issue. The problem is, when a shooting happens, it will be examined very closely by the courts. In some cases there will be a prosecutor who doesn't like guns, and he may bring up the reload issue to make the shooter look like somebody who "tried to concoct the deadliest bullets he could". Is it BS? Absolutely, but it has happened.
Where this is more prevalent is the civil arena. An attorney out for a monetary settlement will bring it up ad nauseum. The fact there is no law against it doesn't matter, you will still have to defend yourself against these scurrilous accusations, and that may bankrupt you. For me, the risks arent worth what I would save over factory ammo costs. You may have a different opinion and that's fine.
If you want further information from someone who has seen this firsthand, check out the writings of Massad Ayoob. He has written on this extensively and testified about it in many civil and criminal cases.

My thoughts exactly and I didn`t buy into it at all , but talking to that fella is like talking to the bricks.
I never use reloads for actual defense anyway ,but one could find it`s way into the cylinder-not that it matters.
I really like that SCURRILOUS word wish I knew how to work it into a conversation.

Heard of it... dismissed it as the idiotic statement that it is. I know of no coroner who would even know it was a reload unless it was a bullet you cast yourself, and even then all they would note would be the caliber and type of bullet. I can't even imagine a police officer even asking "Did you shoot him with a bullet you bought or one you made?"

It would have to be a "VERY" questionable shooting for a DA to even begin to concern themselves with something along those lines... now if you shot them with a .22 and their freakin' head literally EXPLODED off his body, then they might wonder.

I used to get lots of people in the CCW Certification classes I taught who thought this. My answer/explanation was always: if the shooting is justified it won't matter what ammunition you use...and if the shooting is un-justified it won't matter what ammunition you use.

It could become an issue in civil court but unless you are putting blasting caps or C4 in your hollow point handloads I think a competent attorney on your side can show your ammunition is irrelevant.

Dave

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RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)

Is your friend an attorney? Judge? If not, he should stick to things he knows about.

This guy knows everything about everything, Or so he thinks.

I`m beginning to not want him for a friend anymore.

I think I know this guy. He posts under a lot of different names on most every forum that I go to.

BTW- this topic has been absolutely beat to death on several different forums including this one. The over/under for this thread is about 12 pages if it flairs up again...

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Andy

In my case one of my carry guns is a Star PD .45. Most everyone knows this gun is not made for shooting factory loads due to its 'fragility.' Those who don't know could be shown much expert advice to support/substantiate this fact.

It would seem that using mild handloads in this instance would almost be a positive in behalf of someone who was forced to use such a weapon in self defense. Attorney could take the whole lot of unfired ammo and lab test it to his/her heart's content.

(Maybe it was deliberately loaded to 'disable' only )

That may prove to be a wise decision......

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

This has been some very interesting reading & I thank everyone for their input. I believe that the answers given in this thread are as diverse as they are due to the fact of where people live. Different states, rural or city living all come into play along with the political climate of the elected officials of the different areas.

In the area that I live in I can see some of the local judges allowing an excessive force lawsuit to happen as a way of controlling private citizens that own guns & use them for SD. What I would call a frivolous law suit they would call allowing an attorney a chance to making a living. I’d rather not go thru an expensive lawsuit over me opening the door by using reloads for SD. I’d rather pay $50 for a couple of boxes of factory ammo than $300 an hour for a lawyer. Any good lawyer going can & will make my reloads the cornerstone of their case & I will have a battle on my hands proving otherwise.

As I stated in an earlier post in the thread, it was explained to me that perception is everything. Facts mean nothing; the way people perceive things is what counts. The advice I received seemed to have merit, it tries protects me from danger/injury, criminal & civil law suits.

I’m not trying to tell anyone what to use for SD, what the best load/weapon combo is or anything of that nature. I’m only giving examples of what I’ve decided to use & why I chose what I did to protect myself/family from danger/injury & lawsuits. I’ll list a couple of other possibilities of what ammo/firearm combo that fits the criteria of what I chose for SD for purposes of perception.

Pistols are ok but I’m a huge shotgun fan & that is what I’ll pick up every time for SD if I’m able to.
1. I use a standard 12ga 870 with a standard feed tube length & a standard 28” vented ribbed bbl with a 3” chamber, bead target sights & screw in chokes with the skeet choke installed. The load that I use for SD is the federal target load T178 in 71/2 shot & it’s a 2 ¾” load that has in big letters on the box “TARGET LOAD”.
2. I use the same shotgun as in #1 & use my reloads in it.
3. I use a pump shotgun with a 3” chamber, pistol grip, sawed off 16” bbl, an extended MAG tube filled with 3” buckshot & deer slugs.
All of the above firearm/ammo combos are completely legal to use & own. The one most likely to keep me out of lawsuits is the firearm/ammo combo in #1. It’s actually a stronger load than my reloads that have the same 1 1/8oz load but only are rated at 1200fps. The perception is that my reloads could be anything but “Target LOADs” but they are just that, target loads. The perception is that I’m using a target load in a target shotgun with a target choke in the bbl. If anyone asks me why I’m using a handicap load (heavier target load) in my shotgun. I’ll tell them I’m a terrible shot at trap and skeet & need all the help I can get.

When I do rely on a pistol I like the big heavier bullets of the larger calibers, it’s just a personal preference.
1. My 1st choice is a 45acp, I own two of them & use the 1911 that’s setup for target shooting (target trigger, target sights, target grips, ECT). The ammo that I use is federals GM45A, it’s their 230gr FMJ “MATCH TARGET AMMO” & it states so on the box.
2. I use the same pistol with my 230gr LRN reloads.
3. I use a combat setup 1911 with the hot federal PD45HS3H load with epoxy filling the HP’s just for good measure.
Again all of the firearm/ammo combos are legal but the #1 combo will be the one most likely to keep me out of lawsuits. My reloads are actually tamer than the federal target loads because I try to keep the speeds of my 230gr LRN bullets around 800fps & the federal target loads are rated at 860fps. But any good lawyer will argue differently. It’s a very powerful perception that I’m just using a target load in a target pistol when the real truth is that my reloads are truly the target load.

My choice in a backup pistol or 2nd pistol would be a revolver.
1. A S&W 44mag. With at least a 6”bbl, a target trigger, target hammer & target sights. The ammo that I use is federals C44SA, it’s a “TARGET AMMO” that’s in 44SPL with a 200gr LHP bullet.
2. The same pistol with my reloads in 44SPL.
3. The same pistol with federals P44HS1 load.
All the firearm/ammo combos are legal to use, but again #1 combo is perceived to have the least amount of overkill. I’m using a “TARGET 44SPL” load in a 44MAG & if anyone asks me why I’m using a HP bullet for target shooting. My answer will be that I was told that it would be the safest bullet to use, a soft lead HP bullet, for target shooting with bowling pins, cowboy action events or steel plates/challenges because the soft lead HP bullet will flatten out on impact greatly reducing the chance of any ricochets. Again my reloads are actually tamer than these factory loads & I use a 214gr SWC bullet, not a HP bullet & they are only traveling at around 850fps. It’s the perception of a reload VS a target load because it clearly says it’s a “TARGET LOAD” on the box.

In all the firearm/ammo combos that I use I’ve tried to use a combo that will protect my family physically as well as finically. It would be hard for any judge say that I used excessive force with any of these choices as long as I didn’t go crazy & put an excessive number of shots into a BG/BG’s. It would be hard for any lawyer to argue that any of the firearm/ammo combos are excessive. Could they be loaded down more with lighter loads? Absolutely!!! But they also could easily be loaded up a lot heavier/hotter, the shotgun could have easily been loaded with a multitude of various 3”MAG ammo. There’s a ton of different SD ammo out there for the 1911 along with seemingly endless extremely powerful loads for the 44MAG.

The perception that I’m using target firearms with factory target ammo is very compelling. These facts will go a long way in aiding me with favorable decisions the law enforcement agencies/courts will be making about any premeditation of the shooting, the justification of the shooting & any civil lawsuits that could arise from the shooting.

I’m sorry for being so long winded & I’m not trying to tell anyone what firearm or ammo to use. I would love to use reloads for SD, there’s just too many different things riding on the ammo choices I make.

The rumor that reloads will get you in trouble pretty much started with Mas' article that discussed the Bias case, that is why it is mentioned every time the topic comes up by the way. Mas has stated on this forum several times that the idea he was trying to get across was that in the case of a self defense shooting, where the shooter is required to prove justification in the use of deadly force, handloads do not offer the benefits of exemplar evidence or trusted factory documentation as tools to help prove your argument. At least that's the way I understand it, and if that is correct then we can put the "handloads can get you into trouble" theory to rest. But it will then arouse the theory that they won't get you out of the trouble that you are already in.

If this isn't a typo, then you aren't as legal as you thought and reloads would be the last of your worries.

Even if he is, he has NO idea what he is talking about-- period-- there is NO case on record I know of where this has been a issue-- keep posting this bilge and give the antis some more 'ammo' to use against us.

Jack: I agree w/others in that this is total BS. I worked as a LEO for 30 years and this never came up. As to your choice in friends, your last post may be a wise choice.

Amen Shipmate

As with any of these 'experts' , tell him to find the federal , state or local law/statute/chapter/paragraph/verse. Gun laws are easy to find.

Actually this is a tough question.

Instead of bringing all this up again, as it's been beaten to death several times, try a search and find the old threads.

There are supposed to be jurisdictions that ban the use of reloads for CCW carriers. And there is the possibility that an innocent shooter was found guilty because of his use of reloads. Not the fact that he used them, but because of the ignorance of the people that tried the case.

Mr. Jellybean,
I`m sorry to bring back a subject that was "beaten to death"
The fact is I never even thought to do a search, but I will next time.
I`m still computer/forum illiterate.

There is a famous law officer that uses a murder case to try to persuade you not to use home made ammo for SD. Whatever.

The truth is, Jelly hit it on the head. Check you local jurisdiction and if you are involved in a shooting, keep your mouth shut. You do have the right to remain silent, use it wisely!

Damn, sounds like jack oconnor has met my brother-in-law. He never saw a need to own an encyclopedia or dictionary, he already knows everything!

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Expect no quarter.

Talk to your local authorities. Find out if it might genuinely be an issue. Act accordingly. Remember that if you ever have to use a weapon in SD/HD, you will be facing major issues. Always best to think ahead and make sure you are not creating problems for yourself in the event of an incident. For my part, I reload practice ammo and full-power hunting ammo. For HD, I use plain Jane Remington 180gr. JHP .40 S&W ammo. At across the room HD distances, effectiveness in my G-22 will not be an issue. And if later the prosecutor wants to be difficult, using the same round and ammo as the local police department will give him one less thing he can look at for problems. JMHO. Sincerely. Bruce.

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<><

My "BS" meter just went off scale and fell on the floor.

Police and prosecutors use BS meters too, although they don't always keep them calibrated very well. They don't usually dig too deep unless their BS meters go off when the story you tell them doesn't match with the evidence they collect.

There is nothing wrong with asking to speak to your attorney first, but be careful with how you act. If they feel you are being hostile or evasive toward them, that might set their BS meters off too. If you are really innocent or justified, tell the truth, and nothing but the truth, the evidence will back you up. But if you try to overjustify your actions or try to fudge in your favor and the evidence doesn't bear everything out, it might work against you, even if you are innocent.

You will never find a higher concentration of liars anywhere than in a courthouse, IMO. From what little I have seen, an honest man hasn't a chance. In the "legal system," being honest in no way guarantees the system will leave you alone. The truth is no substitute for competent legal representation.

good advice above.
Just to chime in, Say nothing.
"anything you say can and WILL be used against you." it doesn't read
"anything you say might be used against you, unless your a really friendly guy and tell the police officer everything."

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sw9ve, 24/7 pro Ds, Hs M4

I was advised by a friend who is an Attorney, to find out what ammo the local P.D is using and carry that. If it is good enough for them it is good enough for me. The only argument I can see for not using hand loads, is the fact that an attorney might try to claim that you had loaded some super deadly round. You have to be confident in what you carry, it is your choice. I for one would not want to give a lawyer in a civil case any advantage at all. I cary factory ammo.( Just my two cents)

+1

I know you will want to cooperate with the cops. Consider that, after a shooting you will have post action jitters, your hearing will be temporarily impaired and you may be suffering from conflicting strong emotions. That last is especially true if one of your family or you were injured. In short, you will be in an altered state of mind. It is a very bad idea to talk to the police in such a state. Cardinal Richelieu is supposed to have said that if he were given ten sentences written by the most honest man in France, he could still find something therein to convict him with. Do not give some zealous DA those sentences.

Also remember you will not be able to talk you way out of it at the scene. It will be up to the DA to press charges, not the cops.

A "super deadly round" is not relevant to the shooting. If you are claiming self defense then you are claiming deadly force was justified. It is not legally relevant whether that force was a baseball bat or a hypersonic projectile with a tungsten core. If you are justified you are justified. If your ammunition was illegal then the DA will probably stack that charge on top of whatever ever else he can in an attempt to get you to plead out. Another reason you want a lawyer who understands self defense cases and not a PD who is used to defending the bad guys.

It may be true that the kind of ammo you used could be an issue in a civil trial. However, I don't know of any civil case where it was. I'm open to references if somebody has any.

I know that no matter how good the shooting was, it ain't over until the T's are dotted, the I's crossed and the courts agree with you. I've studied a number of cases and I've seen several where a DA looking for headlines or "sending a message" (Why he wants to send a message to give the scumbags whatever they want is beyond me) went after people who did not deserve the krap.

In a sane world the police would show along with the local civil liberties union and the only concern would be, "Did the right person get shot?" I get that the system today does not favor the peacable citizen. All I'm trying to say here is that there a lot more things to worry about in the aftermath of a shooting than the kind of ammo you used.

I understand caution, really, I get that. What I don't get is the fear behind it. Fear of being labeled, friend, if you carry a gun you already are labeled.

Make the cops do their job, convicting you of a crime. Don't help them by opening your, or mine for that matter, fool mouth. If you are super worried, use new components from the same manufacturer. All Federal cases, all XTP bullets, or whatever.

It's like what happened when the Republicans had control of Congress the last time. The Democrats didn't have to actually have a filibuster, all they had to do is threaten one.. Same here. No where in America, has handloaded ammunition been an issue in a court of law for a good self defense shooting, no where. All someone has to do is threaten for there to be an issue. We all cower in fear. NOT ME.

jack oconner, I wasn't trying to be offensive in any way towards you. If it appeared that way I apologize.

Imagine having a discussion with your friend for about 20 pages on a forum.

If there are no laws forbidding the use of reloads in the shooting situation, the shooter can not be charged with anything pertaining to them. You must have violated a law or ordinance to be accused or charged.

There are some that will tell you that the use of reloads will cause unscrupulous prosecutors to call you all sorts of bad names, but that would be a big mistake if your attorney is worth a... as it would hurt them more than help them. The same goes for a civil trial.

The "famous law officer" Skip, (smith crazy), mentioned is a member here and had participated in one or two of the previous discussions. He said the real reason to not use reloads is because there is no "exemplar" evidence to back you up. (Most ammo factories keep very detailed records of their ammunition based on the lot numbers marked on the box. If they know the lot number on the ammunition you used in a shooting they can provide test samples or information pertaining to ballistics tests without destroying the ammunition in evidence.) The problem with his article on the subject was that in the case he used for an example the suspects "innocence" was highly questionable and his use of reloaded ammunition really didn't have anything to do with his being found guilty. It appeared as though his attorney was trying to get testimony introduced that would create enough reasonable doubt that the jury couldn't find him guilty. But for a person that really is innocent, the lack of exemplar evidence might be a good thing.

IANAL but the ammunition you use is unlikely to be relevant in a criminal case. I don't know of a single self defense case where it has been an issue. Any criminal case will hinge entirely on whether you were justified in using deadly force. If you have decided you will use deadly force to defend yourself, have ready the name and number of an attorney who know how to handle self defense cases.

From reading about self defense cases I've gleaned the following:

If you do shoot someone, call the cops, tell them you shot an attacker and give them your address. Put the gun in a safe place in a safe condition. Do not put it in your regular safe unless there is no other option (I have a small handgun safe in the living room and another in the den). When the cops arrive, do not say anything to them beyond:

1. I was attacked
2. I didn't do anything wrong
3. I want to talk to an attorney
4. I do not consent to any searches

Do not provide any information except on advice of counsel. A digital voice or video recorder is a good idea but check on the legalities in your area.

Good advise I hope in time of crisis I would remain clear headed enough to remember it. Actually it would be a good idea to train all of the household members and keep a check list by the phone.

Put it big print: say this , do not say this!

My office has to maintain our certification credentials, and even though we complain about it - we practice fire drills and med emergencies twice a year. That way everyone knows where to go and what his or her responsibilities are. It avoids lots of confusion

Might be wise to practice a home invasion also, especially if there are very many folks living there, knowing what to do might prevent a mishap or save a life.

The law here today worries about what bullets we used to defend ourselves. Yet across the pond in the war were shooting the bad guys with 50cal 700gr FMJ bullets? And the lawyers here are defending the victums shot with reloads. Are there rules or no set rules. I'm confused on this one. Bill

Yeah but, Bill our military is using "Green" bullets in the sandbox or at least so the news media says... After all we wouldn't want those that terrorize, torture, and/or behead us Americans to contract lead poisoning... Heck, if we didn't have those people to send all the borrowed aid money to our Congress, as Jelly said would just squander it on golf, whiskey, and hookers...

What kind of a lawyer am I anyway? I haven't played golf in years!

Actually, no. There is no law about what bullets or cartridges you can use to defend yourself. The whole premise of the argument is that you should not use handloads to defend yourself because it "may" cause legal issues after a justified self-defense shooting. To my knowledge, no documentation or evidence has been presented of a private citizen being charged or found libel for damages after a self-defense shooting because of the ammo that was used. Yet the argument remains... such is the power and glory of the internet.

Welcome to page 12!

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Andy

It probably doesn't matter. But, if you have any doubts there is plenty of good factory stuff you can buy.

As for me, I asked an ammo dealer what he recommeded for self-defense - I bought 2 boxes and that is what I carry. When it comes to the criminal justice system any set of facts can be made to mean the exact opposit of what really happened.

There is a house I drive by regularly that has a sign in the yard that says "Protected by the Texas Castle Law." Every time I see it I think of some prosecutor using that as evidence of "premeditation" someday.

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6/23/2022

It also says: "Guns available here!"

So...

What if I shoot a home invader with reloaded shotgun ammunition, say a high brass 2-3/4" 12-ga load of 1-1/8 ounce #4

Can anybody even tell?

Let see you shot somebody the least or your worries is the ammunition you used. Your and your family alive bad guy dead, good ending.

Look use what ammo you feel comfortable protecting yourself with. Like my farther always said "Better to be judged by 12, then carried by 6."

if any question arose concerning the ammo used in a s-d shooting I'd tell 'em I bought it at the fun show 'because it was cheap' years ago.
my sympathys jive with M29since 14

I obviously have no where near the legal experiences that the other posters here do, but in every case of self defense investigation that I've had first hand knowledge of the defender was never charged with anything.

I know that once in awhile you will see something on TV or the news that makes people with little knowledge of the facts think that every prosecutor or DA is out to rake everyone over the coals or send them to prison just to make a name for themselves, but when you compare the number of times that this has really happened to the thousands upon thousands of cases where it hasn't, the odds are very much in the innocent persons favor. And when I say innocent, I mean the ones that are really innocent, because everyone knows there are no guilty people in prisons.

There was only one case that I personally know of where an innocent man was sent to prison. Neither the police nor the prosecutors were out to get him, it was a simple case of the "victim" lied through her teeth. The man was appointed a public defender, who wasn't doing much to help him, so his sister put a second mortage on her home to hire a much more expensive attorney to defend him. Notice I didn't say "better" attorney.

There was a person that had information that should have gotten the man released, and that was me. His attorney had me meet him while he was eating lunch, which wasn't a problem, but when I started to give him the information and had to give him a pen so he could write it down on a napkin, I had a feeling the poor guy was in deep trouble. And when he got up to leave and left the napkin on the table, I knew it for sure.

I have learned things from my experiences, just like my more knowledgeable fellow posters.

Defense attorneys get paid regardless of how the case turns out.

Defense attorneys don't care one bit if you go to jail or not.

Most defense attorneys don't know a thing about firearms, let alone reloading, and if a prosecutor or DA does call you bad names he won't even know what he's talking about to counter it.

Compared to some of the safe SD rounds produced by Bufflo Bore and the likes, the BG should be happy that I only shot him with my milder reloads. Otherwise, I'd have blown his head clean off!

How would anyone know it was a reload? If facing legal issues don't talk a lot, consult an attorney.

Ill go ahead and ask this question again since it wasn't addressed. How could they tell if a reload was used. What determining evidence would there be, being of coarse you didn't offer up the info yourself??

Longitudinal marks on the case indicating that it had been run through a resizing die.

Cast lead bullets. Metalurgical analysis of the bullet, non-standard inclusions.

Primer/case mismatch - like a Federal primer in a Winchester case. (Yes, Virginia, it is possible to identify manufacturer of primers)

Bullets that are not found commercially loaded.

And I'm sure others could add to this list. That's just a start.

Flash

I promised myself to stay out of this. So I'm breaking another promise. For the record I practiced law for more than sixteen years, including five as a prosecutor, four of them as the elected official. I also spent enough years in law enforcement to have earned veteran status. I have been involved in several self-defense cases. In each and everyone we checked to see what kind of ammunition was used. Not only is that just good investigation practice, but it could also provide some insight into a person's mental state and intent.

I think we're really missing the point here. First, it is not, as a general statement a crime to use handloaded ammunition. But there are two glaring problems. First, with handloads you don't have the benefit of a factory backing you with experts to testify about ammunition behavior and that leaves the door open for a prosecutor or an attorney in a civil case to portray you as some sort of vigilante cowboy who is acting recklessly and needlessly endangering the public.

But second and more important, if a shooting was justified in the first place, the issue of what you loaded your gun with is irrelevant. Remember, every fatal shooting is assumed to be a homicide until it's proven otherwise. If there's a problem with the shooting, your choice of ammunition may play a role in how your are portrayed to the jury. Remember, juries are made up of twelve people who weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty.

If I was prosecuting a questionable self-defense case, would I use the type of ammunition against the defendant if I thought it would help get a conviction. In a New York minute because by that time I would be pretty certain you are a dangerous individual who should be removed from society. When a case reaches the courtrom, it's about winning and losing. Justice is a by-product of the system. Under our law, if we following proper rules and procedures, it is assumed justice is done. It's called due process.

So, if you want to use handloaded ammunition, talk to your lawyer so you know the law in your jurisdiction and make a knowing, knowledgable decision. For Heaven's sake, do not make that decision based on what you read on a website. Personally, I try to use ammunition that has a long track record with law enforcement.

Now, send me your address so I can send you a bill.....okay, just joking.

Thanks for the input. We had discussed this too during the earlier threads, one of which was a seperate thread. The fact is that you won't always have this with "factory" ammo either and none of them tell you on the box or websites if it is available or not.

Also a point you didn't mention, but has been brought up repeatedly in the past, is that every part of factory ammunition has been developed and tested in a lab while handloads don't have that benefit. But that is not really true either. All of my brass, primers, powders and most of my bullets were made by the exact same people that developed the factory ammo and the loads that I use are even lab tested and approved too. Reloading is pretty much like buying a pre-fab kit and assembling it yourself, and there is no certification needed by the assembler.

The same thing applies to firearms too. It is perfectly legal for me to go into my workshop and build a firearm, inculding the receiver, for my own use. Of course there are laws regarding both the ammo and firearms, but it's not as bad as some would think.

I think a lot of the problems that do arise, with people that are truely innocent anyway, are not so much because of malice or ill intent on the part of the attorneys or prosecutors as it is their pure ignorance of the facts and laws concerning firearms and the ammunition that they shoot.

JC4013 makes some very good points, and I for one put a great deal of credence in his opinion because he has experience in this arena.
I think we are missing the important point here. A lot of posters have the attitude that it's not illegal so I double-dog-dare anybody to question my right to use handloads for self defense. Nobody is arguing it is illegal, or even unethical. The point is, in some cases prosecutors in a criminal case (not that likely) or more likely plaintiffs attorneys in a civil case will use this against you in court. Don't fool yourself, it HAS happened quite a few times. OK, now that I have that knowledge I have a decision to make. Since I carry a gun daily (actually two) I am prepared to use it to defend me or my loved ones. If I do that I will be in a very stressfull situation for quite some time afterwards, even if it is a totally "clean" shoot. I could save a few bucks by using handloads. But if this situation happens, and it is used against me by opposing counsel, how much will it cost me in time and attorneys fees to defend myself? I'll be honest with you, I have no doubt I and my legal counsel WOULD prevail, but my attorney charges $185 per hour. That adds up pretty quick. Is it worth it? For me, absolutely not. Is it a sure thing that information would be used in proceedings against me? No, it is not, but if I can take out that part of the equation, I'll happily do so. I can do that by using factory ammo. Legal counsel will throw anything they can at you to win. If I can take this very simple step to stay out of that quagmire I'm gonna take it. Feel free to have a different opinion, and we can still be friends.