I recently fired some handloaded .45 Colt Cartridges in my Smith 4" 25-5. The load was 8.5 grs. Unique behind a Speer 250 gr. swaged lead bullet. The cases were new R-P nickel plated brass. In 50 rounds, I had 9 lengthwise split cases and 5 cases where the nickel peeled off the front of the case. The lengthwise split started about 1/4" from the case mouth and extended to about 1/4" from the case base. Some of the remaining 36 cases had some minor nickel peeling at the case mouth. I haven't had a drastic case splitting problem when using solid brass cases.

I just read the reviews on the Midway web site about R-P .45 Colt nickel plated cases and this seems to be a common problem.

I don't know what causes this problem but I thought members should be aware of this.

I have handloaded other calibers with nickel plated brass and have never had any problems.

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Nickel Plated cases / ammo looks nice but when I was reloading a lot of .45 ACP I learned real quick to use regular unplated brass. I got much better case life and less problems.
I don't think nickel plated cases were brought out with re-loading in mind.

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Sceva
OGCA SWCA NRA

If this happened the first time you reloaded the cases I'd contact the manufacturer. Looks like a plating issue...

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Andy

i had a lot of federal 32 mag. brass that would crack 3/4s the way down on the first reload, the brass was made when the cartidge first came out, i switched to starline and never had any more problems, this brass was nnot nickle plated.

I get more length-wise splits in the case body with Remington brass than any other brand, by a factor of 10 I bet, and it happens with their loaded handgun ammunition as well as their new brass. I never buy Remington brass or loaded ammo unless it is in a caliber nobody else makes, like .350 Rem Mag, .22 Rem Jet or, formerly, .45 Auto Rim. It just doesn't hold up.

the only time I had problems with nickel plated brass was the Remington 45 Colt a long time ago and it would appear there is still a problem. I have used nickel plated brass from Winchester and Federal without any problems.

I've reloaded a LOT of .357 nickel plated brass, haven't seen any undue problems. But I have heard that cracking does occur in other calibers.

I called Midway and they said to call Remington. I called Remington and they gave me an e-mail address to send my concerns to. I e-mailed Remington and I'll let you know what happens.

I agree with BUFF. I don't buy any Remington brass unless I have to. I've had too many problems with it.

I load nickel cases (range brass) in .38, 9mm, .357 and .45 acp. They split no more or less often than plain brass... so far.

If that is brand new brass, then yes something is not right. Remington should take care of it for you.

I have nothing but nickle brass for my 357 Mag of all mixed headstamps and unknown how many times it's been reloaded.(a lot)
I have had a few split here and there, but never peel like that.

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Still Running Against the Wind

The only time I'll load nickle-plated brass is when I intend the cases to be put up for long-term storage. My regular practice and carry loads are all plain brass. I won't use nickle cases unless I can get them for free.

If you wear ammo in belt loops on a leather belt, they eliminate the corrosion problem.

I load nickle cases in .357 and have found they have about 75% the reload life as plain brass. I care not though as I got a whole bunch for a rediculous price. ;-)

In most 'old time' calibers such as .44-40 , .45 Colt and .45/70 , I use nickeled brass for my black powder loads. Cleans up easily and readily identifies it. Never had a spliting problem with Federal , Remington , Winchester or Starline.

Howdy

I don't use nickel plated brass anymore. My experience with both 45 Colt and 38 Special is that it tends to split more frequently than unplated brass.

Then why does Remington , Winchester , Federal and Starline sell new unprimed NICKEL plated brass?

Never a problem. By all means works it out with Remington.

I have 100 45 Colt R-P Nickel Plated cases some one gave me a few months back. I was told they were once fired.

I was prepping them to reload week before last and I had two of them split exactly as pictured in thedane's post while full length sizing them.

I looked the rest over closely and primed them. I think after I reload them and use them once, I'll toss them in the scrap bucket.

I've had trouble with 44 magnum and 44 special remington nickel plated brass too. It doesn't split but it really messes up my sizing die. No matter how clean I get the brass, it leaves some nickel in the die that scratches the regular brass when I go back to use my dies. So I have a separate sizing die I use for only plated cases. But I too only use the plated stuff for carry and long term storage. The 210 silvertips and nickel brass stay clean a long time.

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AM-Tracks 66-69

I have 500 RP nickeled 45 Colt cases that I have been using for a couple of years or so. No issues like this. However, I learned early on that to load 45 Colt cases without sizing difficulties; I needed to lube the cases. I learned this after getting some cases stuck and having issues with plating being scraped off. After I started case lubing, no further issues and the cases go right through the sizing die. Even non-plated cases are difficult to get through the sizing operation without lube.
Try case lubing and see if it resolves your problems.

I use carbide dies for all my handgun caliber reloading. There should be no need to lube the cases.

Experiencing body splits with Nickel plated Remington brass is very common. I have seen more defective brass from Remington than any other brand, and this includes new bulk brass and factory loaded ammunition.

Anyone who has reloaded for more than a few months to a year or two is well aware of this, hardly anything to "Warn" people about. Like others have said, don't buy Remington brass, Nickel or otherwise!

A part of the problem is that Remington brass, particularly handgun calibers, is thinner than other brands. I have seen many times where standard dies will not size Remington cases small enough to obtain adequate neck tension in many calibers because it is so thin.

The unfortunate thing is that at one time, 35-40 years ago, Remington was the preferred brass for many applications, but no longer!!!!!!

After reviewing other posts: The problem isn't with Nickel plated cases, it is Remington Nickle plated brass. I have hundreds or Winchester and W-W Nickel .38 Special that I have loaded more times than I have any idea, have had them since 1969 when I picked up a 5 gallon bucket of fired, previously commercially reloaded, brass from our range. Some of it has been polished so many times the plating has worn off them!

For Andyo5 and Runningiron. These are the reasons Carbide dies are made. Nothing will scratch them, only Diamond is harder. The coefficient of friction is so low that typically it is easier to size in a Carbide die dry than in a steel die with lubrication. If you are using a Carbide die and believe you have experienced a scratched die from either Nickel or abrasive grit you are imagining things, it doesn't happen. If you are using a Carbide sizer and lubricating, and think sizing is difficult, your expectations of how easily cartridge cases should size are simple too high.

I have used Carbide sizers ever since they finally became available at anything resembling a reasonable price, around 1970. I have sized probably over a million rounds through them in all available calibers and have never experienced anything that could be called difficult sizing, and have never lubricated. The only times I have seen a case scratched in a Carbide sizer was one RCBS die the ring cracked in, and a brand new Dillon .41 Magnum sizer. It took three trips to Dillon before the die didn't scratch brass. They never admitted to having repaired it! They finally polished it, I know because I marked the body with a small nick so I would know if it had been replaced! They still would not admit that their product had been defective.

I've only been handloading for 30 years, and apparently it's not long enough to know that Remington brass is problematic. I've never had any difficulties with other Remington brass. My only difficulties have been with the nickel plated Remington brass in 45 Colt.

My "warning" was just intended to be helpful to less knowledgeable handloaders. My handloading only extends into the tens of thousands of rounds.

Maybe we should start a thread on who has loaded the most rounds, seriously, and make him the Grand PooBah of Handloading.

You need to re-read my post. I never said the dies were scratched or meant to. What happens is that nickel particles get in the die then that scratches the regular brass, not the die. It's just better for me to use an old die for the nickel stuff. I'm sure you are right within your own experience though. I also think that if I lube the brass this might help. I never used to lube 44 magnum but as I get older and my injuries have more effect on my body, I too have found that spraying a little lube on them makes it much easier. 44 special is much easier for me now and need no lube, but maybe in the future I will lube those too. Every one in life has walked a different path and as they get older has to deal with actions and injuries of that path. I'm just glad I can still reload, even if I need to lube some times to make it easier. Thanks for the lube idea, might help with the nickel.

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AM-Tracks 66-69

I've got several thousand R-P Nickle .357 cases that have been in service for over 20 years... I've never experienced anything even remotely close to the failure rate the OP is seeing... I prefer the plated, non-channelured R-P .357 cases as they never seem to stretch with my favorite .357 load, 7.0 Grns Unique under a cast 168 Grn. SWC Lyman 358429.

I think that they tumble clean alot faster than brass cases and they don't see to allow imbedment of die ruining grit as does brass.

The real benefit of nickle plated brass is the resistance weather and verdigris when in the loops of a tanned leather cartridge belt....

I have found that nickel cases seem to be a little more brittle than solid brass and will split sooner. Nickel is easier to clean and won't tarnish so it is a tradeoff.

About three years ago I bought some new nickel plated Remington .45 Colt brass. I almost never buy handgun brass but .45 Colt isn't something you find at the range every day and I wanted something nickel plated. Remington was all the guy had in stock, so I bought 100. I loaded most of them up with a not-too-heavy load and after the first firing the nickel plating had blown off almost all the case mouths! It was peeling off in large flakes. I could grab pieces and pull large strips off the brass. I have been loading nickel plated pistol and rifle brass for a long time and this is the first time I ever had a problem. It's definitely a Remington problem.

Dave Sinko

I certainly hope they send you a call tag to pick up the brass so then can test it. I am very interested in their response.

I had a problem with some Win White Box ammo years ago and contacted Olin Winchester. They jumped right on it and picked it up and issued me a refund coupon. I was very impressed with how nice they were and professionally handled it.

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Still Running Against the Wind

You answer yourself when you said colt, plated junk as some of thier other stuff.

I also believe in carbide dies for straight cases. Been using them
for only 30 years or so. I think the titanium is smoother than the tungsten.
I have also been using plated cases all that time albeit in
the various .44 calibers. I prefer them. Never seen the plating
come off. The stuff you show is just plain wrong, badly manufactured
to the point of serious liability IMHO. Imagine an officer involved
in a shootout and his round blows up in the gun. Not good.

Getting back to the dies and cases, I do have a little twist on
technique. I leave a little of the dust from tumbling on the cases
and size em dry with a touch of the powder still on. Seems to polish
both the cases and slowly, the dies. They just keep getting
smoother over the years. You will have to pry them......

My favorite 44 cases are Federal nickel. Looking into the Starline
stuff now. Have yet to get any but they seem to have a good rep.

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Nemo

I've had some splitting issues with both Remington and Winchester nickel plated brass, not as drastic as that, but they just don't seem to last as long as the regular stuff. Seems to be more brittle for some reason, but I once bought 1000 once fired 38 nickel brass that was Federal plus P plus that I was told came from government agency, no unusual issues with that. They held up for many years of reloading.

This is the response from Remington:

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Subject
.45 Colt Nickel Plated Brass Failure

Discussion Thread
Response (Frank) 06/13/2011 08:26 AM
We have forwarded a description of your problem as well as your contact information to our ammo plant. They will be sending you a shipping label to return the remainder of the ammunition for testing / replacement. Thank you for contacting us and look for the information from the ammo plant in the next week or two.Thank you for visiting Remington Country! We certainly appreciate you taking the time to write in with your question.Have aq good day .

********

So far, I'm happy with their handling of this issue.

I am using a Dillon carbide sizing die. It appears mirror smooth, with no scratches. I have been reloading for 15 years.
If I load either type of 45 Colt brass without lubrication, I can look forward to tendonitis and stuck cases. That's just the way it is. Not so with any other pistol cases I have loaded, just 45 Colt. But I have only loaded Remington brand cases, both nickled and standard. Maybe another brand would be easier to load?

I received a letter and mailing label from Remington to return the cases. They also included an ORM-D label. I don't think this is necessary since I'm not sending them loaded ammunition.

With my handloading experience approaching 50 years, I've had occasional case body splits and head splits in every caliber I shoot, from .22 LR to .38-55 & several '06-class cartridges. I've noticed it mostly in older ammo, and several-times-loaded high performance loads, but the only caliber in which I had an inordinate number of failures was .45 Colt, fired out of a Model 25-5 and reloaded with RCBS gear. The brass I used was W-W, R-P, and Federal from factory ammo that I fired, bullets cast & jacketed from 185 to 255 gr, propelled by Unique, Bullseye, 2400 and 296. I did not have a carbide sizer, so lubed the brass carefully, and still lost quite a few cases in sizing, both by collapse and by tearing the rims off. I can't remember keeping track of which brand split the most, only that I had more failures, bodies and heads, than in any other caliber I was shooting. When I finally took up .44-40, I sold the M25 and all my .45 Colt gear as a package, and haven't had a .45 Colt since.
I wish could offer an explanation, but there's one guy's experience; Could it be a problem endemic to .45 Colt?

Larry

I read this entire thread thoroughly, especially Larry's general comment about just dumping .45 LC, above. Sounds good to me. Reason? I've been reloading for over 50 years, and have close to 40 die sets now. Of all those, my most frustrating experiences, greatest long running failure in general, is with .45 LC. I've been meaning to run up the distress flag and ask if anybody on this forum has a lead bullet load which will give half way decent accuracy. I'm about ready to give up. But here is the .45 LC brain trust.

I've gone to a lot of trouble to build up an "N" frame equivalent of the Model 25, with an LPA rear which I installed, barrel I fitted and gapped to .002", high front sight I hand made and fitted into a 1/8" groove I milled...on and on it goes. Never can I get down to 2" 50 foot groups...always flyers and erratic baloney, just when I think I'm almost there.

The cases are too thin in general, and capacity is too great. Bullseye, Unique, 2400, 231...nothing gives really good results. 175 gr., 185 gr., 255 gr. lead bullets, my own and commercial...nothing is much good.

In 1994 I special ordered from Colt's shop a nickel SAA in .45 LC with 4.75" bbl. This was to be my perfect fun gun. They did a bad job of finishing it, and it was grossly inaccurate, so back it went to Colt. They worked on the nickel, improved it, and sent it back with a beautiful test target...almost a single hole...fired with Magtech cowboy action ammo. Nobody would tell me what the load was, and I could never duplicate it. Nor could I even find the ammo for sale, so I could break it down and have a look.

I've tried sizing the bullets to .450, .451, .452, and I even made my own sizing die for .454". Last diameter sound ridiculous? Winchester Silvertips gave me phenomenal accuracy, just what I wanted, and I measured their bullets at .454. But I could find no load to make those bullets work like Winchester did.

I have not had the case splitting problem, but I have had the thin rims pull off in the sizing die, even when well lubed. And the thin walls crumple if I'm not extremely careful to flare enough. I'd like to throw up my hands and chuck it all, but this SAA and my hand built "Model 25" just look so nice, and I have that Colt test target, and I don't give up easily.

Is .45 LC simply a loser, for a host of reasons, and do I just wash my hands of it like Larry did? Is there a magical load combination, like those few super accurate Silvertips I shot? Am I just hexed, vis a vis this one caliber?

I've taken so many measurements on both guns, and there just isn't anything wrong. Barrels are good, gaps are minimal, chamber mouths are correct diameter and uniform from chamber to chamber, timing is right, forcing cones are fine... Trigger is O.K. on the Colt and of course wonderful on the Smith.

What is so ironic is that .44 Magnum is almost the same type of cartridge, yet my experience with it, over 51 years, is the exact opposite as with .45 LC. I almost can't make it be less than a tack driver, in any one of three guns, with any bullet weight, loaded up, down, or sideways with one of several powders.

In some ways, reloading does seem to be something of a black art, and I guess we all love it as much as shooting, or more so, but I'm up against a brick wall with .45 LC, and all your experiences with split cases and flaking nickel add to the psychic smell.

We agree on the Remington cases and other products. Forget them. I could go on about their bad primers. And their ammo in general. Awhile back, I ran into some dangerously defective Remington .22 ammo which could give stuck bullets. I thought it would be the "right thing" to alert them and send it back for testing. What a nightmare hassle. They wanted it, but they would not even reimburse me for the shipping. They did not offer replacement ammo. They did not thank me for trying to be helpful. They refused to admit there was any problem with the ammo. They refused to reveal the test results, when asked directly, and offered no reason or explanation. It is not the same Remington which built some of the rifles I love and collect. Nor is it the world of yesteryear, I guess.

But. Does anybody have some accurate Silvertip-equivalent loads I can try, or do you guys know what MagTech puts in those cowboy action loads which even Colt uses for accuracy testing? Nobody is talking there.

I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but here you are, all the .45 LC guys gathered together. If you don't know how to make it work, maybe it can't be done.

Or should we throw a big beer party, toss all our .45 LC handguns into a smelter, and sit around singing songs and just being happy...with our trusty and accurate S&W .44 Magnums?

Oops! Wrong. Cylinders and barrels can be replaced on those "N" frames.

Sorry to be so verbose, but .45 LC is just about driving me out of my gourd. Maybe this proves it's already happened. Nothing has been this much trouble.

With 4 SASS shooters in the family shooting Ruger 45's we reload bazillions of 45's on our Dillon 500. I've never had a case split after a first loading regardless of brand. We look after each match and toss the split cases, they start to show up after 4-5 reloadings but it's not consistent as to failures. Your load is not excessive, just basically a Cowboy load. I'd write to the factory and see if they will replace them. It's not a common problem so maybe just a bad batch.
Cherokee Slim

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NRA,SASS,BOLD#808,Semper Fi

PhilOhio, I have six handguns in 45LC:
Ruger 7 1/2" Blackhawk
Ruger 5 1/2" Bisley
Ruger 4" Redhawk
S&W 4" Mountain Gun
Uberti 5 1/2" SAA
USFA 5 1/2" SAA

What worked for me was to get a throat reamer and make sure that the throats in the cylinder were all at least 0.452" in diameter. All the guns except for the Bisley and USFA had undersized throats. So the bullets were being formed by the throats and were undersized by the time they entered the barrel. Reaming them to 0.452" greatly improved the accuracy of each gun involved. I used a Manson reamer (no relation to Charlie) bought from Midway. The Bisley and USFA needed no reaming or other help to perform well, aside from a lighter mainspring in the Bisley.
Loads that I have the best accuracy with are:

250g RNFP lead or 255g lead SWC over 8.5g of Unique. Capable of sub-2" groups at 20 yards if my old eyes are working right. Suitable for SAA and all the other guns.
250g JHP (Hornaday XTP) over 13g of Blue Dot. I do not use this load in non-Rugers, though. Also capable of sub-2" at 20 yards, probably better if fired from a Ransom Rest or by someone with better eyes than mine.
I lube the cases, and have no loading difficulties when I do so. I have no end of problems if I do not lube. I use Dillon case lube, and wipe each case after loading a bunch of them. My sizing die is a Dillon carbide die.
I have fired much more powerful loads in my Rugers, some clocking in excess of 1300 fps. The accuracy was 'OK', but not as good as the less powerful loads. The recoil was more brutal of course, and unless I am confronted by a polar bear I will not need such a load.

You can tell if your throats are undersized by measuring them with a caliper, but the easiest way is to take a 0452" diameter bullet and see if you can push it into the cylinder throat with hand pressure, starting from the forward end. If it will go in, the throat is not undersized.

Andy, thanks so much for those load suggestions, which I've printed out. I will work my way through some of them.

I have no problems with cylinder throat/bullet realtionships. Throats on both my S&W and SAA are precisely uniform and correct. I have bullet sizes that just barely can be pushed through them, some that are .001 to .002 undersized, and some that are .002 to .003 oversize. No combination gives good accuracy, but the bigger, oversize ones are better. And the best ones, the factory Silvertip loads, have bullets that are about .002 over the throat diameters.

So the problems are still a mystery to me, and maybe one or more of your loads will be the magic combination. It's amazing how small changes can affect accuracy.

If your bullets vary by being 2 to 3 thousandths oversize, you probably should try buying better bullets. While the original diameter for 45LC bullets was 0.454", most gun builders postwar commonized the 45LC with the 45ACP and now the 45LC is based on a barrel diameter of 0.452", just like the 45ACP. That is why Ruger and others sometimes offer revolvers with both a 45LC and a 45ACP cylinder. I have had good luck with Oregon Trail bullets, in both 250g RNFL and 255g SWC configuration. I'd say that the 250g RNFP has the edge in terms of accuracy. Also, a REALLY good bullet is the Ranier 250g FP plated bullet.

Don't tell that to my M625 Mountain Gun. This is a 1 3/8" group shot at 15 yards, by a guy who is so farsighted that he can't even focus on the sights.

Nickel plated brass will tend to split after several reloads irrespective of the brand. Recently I have observed a greater rate of case splitting upon reloading R-P brass than with either Federal or Winchester.

Funny you should put up that target picture today, Andy. This morning I tried that same load for the first time, one you suggested yesterday, and got the same group size, just to the left of the bull; adjusted sights later. This is the first time I have ever been able to get a group of about 1.5" from 50 feet, shooting .45 LC in anything. It was in the 6" N frame Smith I built up for target shooting.

Regarding case failures, I discovered the wall is so thin on some R/P that with several, out of a box of 50, there were the beginnings of buckling at the cannelure, just from seating pressure. Bullets were 255 gr. classic SAA style, sized to .452, and cases were belled and expanded to about .450". There should not have been such buckling. Bullets were also well aligned before seating. But the buckling was so slight it did not interfere with chambering.

FYI Andy, I measured my Smith chamber mouths to be .4535, about as good as I could hope for... .0015 over bullet diameter.

PhilOhio,

I wouldn't trash your gun yet. I used 8.0 grs. Unique behind a 250 gr. CSWC for years. That was my standard load. It shot great in a 25-5 8 3/8" and a Colt New Frontier 7 1/2". In fact the Colt was so accurate I sold the 25-5 years ago. I've also shot Colt SAAs with that load with mixed results. The 7 1/2" barrels tended to work better for me.

Recently, I picked up a 25-5 4" and started to try to make it shoot accurately. Because the chambers are oversize, I tried a .454 bullet. I used both the Hornady Cowboy bullet (.454) and cast bullets that I sized at .454. I compared the results of my .452 sized bullets with the .454 and Unique loads of 8.0 and 8.5 grains in each.

I settled on 8.0 grs. of Unique and bullets sized at .452.

I usually shoot at 25 yds. But I'm confident that I could get 1 1/2" - 2" groups at 50 feet.

I have always had split cases with .45 Colt. They just seem to go with the territory. But the R-P Nickel plated were much worse.

Phil, It has been shown that moderately oversized throats do not harm accuracy. Undersized is the problem.
You are loading 0.452" bullets, but only belling the case IDs to 0.450"? I don't see how you can even get them into the cases! You should be belling the case IDs to a few thousandths over 0.452" with the powder die, just before inserting the bullet.

As many experienced reloaders have mentioned, Remington brass is mediocre at best. I am not a fan of nickel plated brass for roll crimped revolver rounds anyhow. Here's why: Unless you are very meticulous about trimming cases to the same length and chamfering, nickel cases end up launching micro particles of flaked off nickel plate down the bore of your revolver, as that bullet blows past that crimp. I personally do not want anything that has the potential of scratching my bore going along for the ride. The only Remington brass that I will pay for is for 221 Fireball. By the way........221 Fireball is one sweet shooting round in the proper rifle. While the Rem cases seem to deliver, I would pay double if Lapua or Norma did a run of Fireball cases!............That's just plain pitiful if shooters are getting split case necks with a low pressure round such as 45Colt.

I always start off a new batch of cases by uniforming them in length, then chamfering both outer and inner edges. Maybe that's why I haven't been getting split cases.

Here are a couple of pictures of my M25-5 4" and the associated targets. One group (1 1/2") was shot with my 255 gr. CSWC and 8.0 Grs. Unique at 50 ft. Five shot group 2 shots through the same hole. The other group (2") was shot with 250 gr. Commercial Cast RNFPs and 8.0 grs. Unique at 25 yds.

Both bullets were .452 diameter fired through oversized chamber throats (approximately .455/.456).

In my mind this is acceptable accuracy.

Beautiful M25, Dane! Those grips are first rate.
Here's a pic of my M625


and here's a target I shot with my USFA SAA.

Andyo5,

Great shooting! I guess .45 Colts aren't so bad after all!!