All you 44Spl fans out there, I have a question.

I do like the Skeeter - 250g cast over 7.5g Unique.

What I've got is 3#'s of 231 and an empty bottle of Unique.

Local guy is out of Unique and it will be a while before I get some.

So, over time I have tried several loadings of 231 under this bullet and I came to like 6.5g as it feels the same to me. I know 6.5g works, but I'd like a direct duplicate.

Not owning a chrono, I have no idea of the actual velocities involved, but what I'm after is a replicate of the Skeeter which I understand is just north of 900fps from a 4" 44Spl.

For the safety conscious, I use these in two 624's, a 3" and a 4", both factory verified with inspected cylinders.

I only have 240gr cast bullets or I would Chrono some for you.

Got lots of HP 38.

Lyman Cast Manual, lists 767 FPS with 6.9 grs of Unique and a 245 gr bullet, and 747 FPS with 6.6 grs Unique and a 255 gr bullet.

With 5.7 grs W 231, and a 245 gr bullet they get 843 FPS .

All out of a 4" test barrel.

So it seems if you are gonna bump it up that much you will be in that 900 fps range.

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Still Running Against the Wind

240's are close enough, truth be told.

I'd imagine only a few % difference.

If you have the opportunity and feel like doing it, I'd be grateful for the info.

Do you shoot the Skeeters? If you do, have you chrono'd them?

@ 900fps is an awesome area to operate the 44Spl, in fact I'd say it duplicated the original 45Colt load, which is very impressive.

I'm sure someone has tried the loads you are looking at already and will post the results, we are a very large community here on the S&W forum. Sorry but I don't load for the 44 Special...

I shoot a lot of .45 Colt ammo using W231 and I like it a lot. I'm sure it's just a good in the .44 Special.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Are you going to post his request over there?

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Still Running Against the Wind

No, I shoot more 44 Mag with 240 Gr LSWC. To be honest I have not loaded the 44 Spl for a while. I have been shooting more 45 Colt, 44 Mag and 357 Mag

I can load some 240 grs with HP 38 but I am not going to push them as high as you want.

It's so brutally hot and humid here I am gonna have to pick a cloudy day.

I'll go dig some brass and bullets out so I do not forget.

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Still Running Against the Wind

OK, your brass and bullets are in Que for the next loading session.

Should be able to get some data this week at the OCD testing swamp!

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Still Running Against the Wind

Somewhere between 6.5 and 7.0 grs of 231 should do what you are talking about. I would definitely start at 6.0 and work up really slowly. 231 should work great. I shoot a lot of HP-38 which is the same thing.

Mark in GA

Naaa, just a mistake that can happen when you are looking at 2 forums back to back and almost every night! LOL

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I have the press set up and the Lee Auto disc is throwing 6.0 grs of HP 38 so that's what they are gonna be.

MBC 240 gr truncated FN bullet it's a BHN of 12. I have the 240 gr LSWC Kieth's but they are harder at 18 BHN Use those for the 44 Mag and 2400 or H110.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Thanks for that.

I've already shot the load in question, so in my case there's no issue about work-up or safety, they're fine. They feel just like a Skeeter, which is to say quite mild for a mag shooter like myself. Not challenging to the 624 frame in any way.

I'm using a Lyman 429421 with straight WW, so my best guess is a hardness of 12 and when I weighed them I got 250g before lube.

In the mag I use 7g 231 in a magnum case under the same bullet for what I thought was @ 900fps in order to duplicate the Skeeter and what EK called a "useful special". On another forum I was given chrono info for the mag case and 7g 231 and it's right on the money at 900.

All these years of reloading and figuring, I cut back the charge by a half grain for the Spl case and with any luck it should work out.

I appreciate your help and look forward to your results.

BTW, I got a chance to get to the range today and try out the new roscoe. She's a honey! Tossed @ 30 Skeeters downrange out of the 4" and another dozen out of the 3" and I'm kicking myself for waiting so long to get them.

Class showed up early and that was the end of my shooting for the day.

I would guess you might need a bit more 231 than 6.5 grs to get 900fps in a 4" barrel. I have some older 429421s that weigh 250grs with
lube. In magnum brass 7.8 grs over CCI 350 primers = 940 fps in my
4" 29 and 960 fps in my 4 5/8" Ruger. 8.2 grs boosts velocity to 980fps
in the 29 and 1000 in the Ruger. Accuracy, velocity and consistancy
improved for me using mag primers in the magnum brass. I confess to
never having loaded any 44 specials however.

I have an M24-3, 4" bbl. and an M24-5 Heritage Series with 6 1/2" bbl.

I've loaded and chrony'ed a 240 Mastercast SWC BB bullet over 6.5 grains of W-231 as follows in the two revolvers above.

With the M24, 4" bbl. I get 818.4 avg. f.p.s.

With the M24, 6 1/2" bbl., I get 874.4 avg. f.p.s.

I use Winchester .44 Special brass and Federal Large Pistol primers.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Looking good!

This is groundbreaking. If between us there's a load for actual Skeeters using 231, it will open up a new avenue for us reloaders.

4" barrel, 900fps and it's a Skeeter.

I'm starting to think somewhere @ 7g is going to produce the desired results and that 6.5g is a bit shy.

Looking forward to your info (and wishing I was there shooting with you).

What exactly are you defining as a Skeeter?? I know who Sketeer is (was).But not whatever load goes with his name?
Just trying to get a 240/250 gr bullet over 900 FPS out of a shorter barrel??


The last time I went to order HP 38/W 231 they where out of it so I thought I would try the Win Auto Comp and bought 8lbs of it. It is similar to W 231 but a little slower burning, finer and you use a bit more of it. It meters great. I am real pleased with it and have used it all my handgun loads. I will have to try it now in the 44 Spl. I do not care about the "Comp" part as I think it is just hype. At first I thought is stood for competition but I guess it was for compensated guns.

Based on the Hodgdon load data, they use 1 gr more and obtain 50 FPS more velocity with pretty much the same pressure

Of course ArchAngleCD will wonder why we are messing with these powders and just use HS 6
Which gives better velocity and less pressure.

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Still Running Against the Wind

A Skeeter load is 7.5g Unique under a 250g SWC for @ 900fps out of a 4" barrel.

My goal is to duplicate that with 231 if it is possible to do so safely, and I believe it to be.

Reason...

I use 231 for all my non magnum loadings, it's very versatile, burns and meters well, in short - I like it. I've used it to launch 45acp, 45Colt, 38Spl, 44Spl in a magnum case, 45-70 trapdoor loads, etc. Now I want to duplicate a specific load with it - the Skeeter.

In past I've used 231 w/o trying to duplicate anything, just using it and enjoying the results in low to moderate loads.

I could simply default to Unique for these loads, and I have, but I am out of it and just happen to have 3#'s of 231 laying about.

I will buy more Unique as I find it's really nice in the 45Colt and if the 231 experiment produces poor results, I'll continue to use it in the 44Spl.

I tend to believe at this point that my 6.5g 231 in a Spl case falls a bit short of the goal and that 7g might be the correct load to launch a 250g SWC @ 900fps from a 4" barrel. Pressure is my only concern as I do not wish to stress the N frame or magnumize a Spl revolver. 900fps is a good figure, a do-all IMO.

Even my magnums aren't barn burners. I move a 265g GCSWC @ 1200fps (Lyman 429244), and I'm very happy with that.

Who me?? You seem to have the impression I like HS-6...

(and what you say is true, HS-6 will do a good job in the 44 Special)

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I also use the HP 38/W 231 for pretty much everything. If I could only have one powder that would be it.
As well as the Auto Comp works it just may replace the W 231 for me.

I tried bumping up the HP 38 in the 357 Mag but the results were not worth the risk so went back to 2400.


I get 850 fps out of my 4", 45 Colt Mt Gun with a 250gr bullet and 8.7 grs of Unique

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Still Running Against the Wind

I also use mostly W231 for my handgun ammo but all kidding aside, when I need more velocity especially from a heavier bullet I turn to something slower than W231 like HS-6, Power Pistol, AA#5 and the likes. Even though W231 is a great powder even it can't do everything. I have used it for every handgun caliber I load but when the bullets get heavy or I need high velocities it sometime falls short. (because of pressure of course)

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I realize the limitations of 231 and I agree that there's better powders for heavy bullets, in fact, I admit to loading these 250's with Unique presently.

However...

900fps isn't asking too much from 231 IMO.

I could be wrong, but when the speed is under 1000fps, in this case 100fps less, I was hoping to use 231.

Like I said, I could be wrong here and off the top of my head I can think of several excellent powders to achieve this result, including the one I'm currently using - Unique.

That said, I am hoping 231 can do this, but I am not willing to harm myself or my revolvers, I have magnums if I need that kind of power. 900fps is the goal, no faster.

You will be able to achieve 900 fps using W231 but my concern is you might not be able to generate those velocities within the SAAMI pressure limits. If you're willing to push the envelope like Skeeter did you will have no problem squeezing 900 fps from a 250gr bullet with W231.

Since we have no way of checking the pressure generated this sounds like a job for QuickLoad. It would ne nice if someone who has the program could run the numbers for us, thanks...

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Quickload?

This program gives pressure data for a given load?

FWIW, my understanding of the Skeeter load is that it exceeds the SAAMI rating for 44Spl, BUT, it is still quite low in the scheme of things and well within the N frame's capabilities.

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking - but no doubt in error - under 18000cup. I'm thinking in the 16000 range.

I'll have to find this information so as to not misquote any further as to the frame's capabilities.

If someone has a Quickload program and is inclined to run the numbers, I'd be very grateful.

Snapping Twig;
In the interests of safety and accuracy, please note that you're using 6.5 gr. to 7.0 gr. of powder (grains), not 6.5 g (grams)! The single "g" is the abbreviation for grams, which would be a catastrophic overload! And a 250 g bullet would weigh just over half a pound!
Don't wanna be preachy, but this COULD be important! Hope it helps.

Larry

I used to have a 4" 624 that had been back to the factory for the cyl
check but I foolishly traded it off. Wish I still had it. There was some question at the time about the strength of the 624 in general and I remember reading that S&W had stated the 624 had the same steel
and heat treatment as the 629. Old Winchester data shows a max. charge of 11.0 grs 231 with a 240 gr lead bullet giving 1285 fps in
their test barrel at 38,000 cup in the 44 mag. 8.2 grs gives me 980 fps
with a 250 gr bullet in my 4" 29. Your quest for 900 fps in a 4" 44
special surely must be safe.

I know someone who does and I hope he is reading this thread. I believe he hangs out more on the other forum

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Still Running Against the Wind

You are correct, the proper abbreviation should be used.

Lets calculate. 7.5 grams would equal 115.7 grains. Would this be a compressed load??

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Still Running Against the Wind

LOL!

While I understand the warning and the annotation issue, in all my years of reloading I have yet to see gr used. I appreciate the caution, but I fear that few will mistake the unit of measure and like OCD1 pointed out, even fewer will be able to make the mistake in the first place.

Compressed load... good one!

Heat treated 24/624... I'm not convinced this is so. I know the 25 isn't heat treated and I believe only magnum offerings are.

Not looking to magnumize the 624. 900fps is well within it's capabilities and my only conscern is if I can use 231 and if so, how much.

I'm doing it now with Unique.

I found some of Skeeter's writings last night and at one time he advocated 8.5g (grains) of Unique. He eventually settled on 7.5g (grains).

He has some other interesting loads taking the 250g bullets as far as 1200fps. That's what I run in my magnum.

Well, just back from the range and it was not pleasant. It rained all day yesterday so even though it was only 88* it was 60% humidity. At least it was cloudy. Yuck. I didn't last long in the Jungle.

So the test results. Using Competition Electronics Pro Digital. Ten feet from muzzle.

SW 696 44 Spl, 3" barrel

240gr LFN with 6.0 gr HP 38 and Wolf SPP

Avg FPS 767

ES 51

SD 14

Same Bullet but with 6.6 gr Win Auto Comp

Avg 777 FPS
ES: 30
SD 10

Just for info I shot some of the HP 38 Loads out of a 4" gun and the velocity was avg of 780 so not much difference.

This load (either the HP38 or Win AC) felt fine and was very accurate at 15 yards. It was easy to shoot and felt like a 44 Special

I do not think pushing it to obtain 900 fps would be worth it (IMHO). I could see maybe 1/2 gr and possibly 1.0 gr more but for me, not worth it as there is no way to determine the resulting pressure. Perhaps 800 FPS would be about it.

I would just go with a slower/different powder, or shoot magnums. I tested some of the same bullets in 44 Mag, 4" barrel with 14.5 gr of Blue Dot and obtained an avg of 1251 with a SD of 12 and I do not even like Blue Dot.

It's one of those HP 38 things, it works well for most everything, but not the ideal for some.

I will load up some with Unique for comparison.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Those pressures are not bad at all if indeed accurate. Something that light in pressure could easily be shot from an N frame revolver.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Speer #8 used a 250 gr LSWC with 7.0 gr of Unique for 906 fps out of a 6 1/2" barrel for a max load. That would indicate Skeeter was pushing things a little. However, Elmer said the same 7.5 gr load was a "light gallery load".

Thanks for that.

Silly me, I did not realize you were shooting them out of an L frame!

You are correct not to push them as I am thinking of doing. Heck, S&W warns owners not to specifically.

I'm of a mind to keep after this, but in the meantime I'll probably go down to the local pusher and get a pound of Unique, if he has any.

Seems someone in the local area cleaned most shops out recently. I should probably get a 4# jug from Powder Valley and just resign myself to using it instead of the 231, but I gots to know. (Dirty Harry quote)


ArcAngel - you are correct as well and if my figures (to be verified) are accurate, there's no issue doing it. I know the Skeeters are OK.

Well I could shoot them out of a 624 no dash but it is a 6" barrel and I am not sure if it is considered a N frame or a K.

To be honest the 696 feels and looks like a more substantial piece than the 624.

Could always just use the 44 Mag.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Your 624 is an N frame and it's WAY stronger than the 696, at least as far as the forcing cone area, which is why S&W suggests bullets no heavier than 200g for the 696.

Using special cases for special loads in the magnum would yield the results and eliminate any issues related to pressure. Totally safe.

Where do you find the info on no bullets heavier than 200 grains?(or grams) I did not know that??

Both of these are no dash guns. I thought I read somwhere that at that time there was confusion on the frame letter system. Holding it, It does not feel as substantial as my other N frames. I even sent the 624 to SW to have them Magnaflux it, as I guess there was problems with some early ones.

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Still Running Against the Wind

There is no confusion on frame sizes, small to large are J, K, L and N. The 696 is an L and the weak point is the barrel forcing cone which is very thin in .44. The 624 is the larger N frame which is why it is a 6 shot while the 696 is a 5. The issue with early 624's had to do with a bad or wrong batch of stainless that some cylinders were made out of.

Honestly, I read about it here the first time and later saw a link to S&W's warning. I always wondered why any SAAMI load for a 44Spl couldn't be used in a 696 and truth be told, I'm still questioning it. Skeeters are definately out of the question however.

I had my 624 investigated since I bought it without the box and Kate Fredette at S&W, who runs the recall, was able to look up my S/N and assure me it shipped AFTER the recall, so they were able to inspect or repair before shipping and mine is OK.

Maybe it's the lighter barrel on the 624 that's making the N frame appear lighter.

Trying to wrap my mind around the 200 gram bullet. Just how big would that be?

In my newly purchased Standard Catalog of S&W page 273

"This model was introduced in December of 1996 as the first SW L frame chambered in 44 Special, 5 shot fluted cylinder stout enough to handle +P ammo with a nominal length of 1.63"

Now, I do not know what +P 44 Special is as there is no standard that I know of but with it's full underlug and general feel it's a solid "little" gun.

Yes the long barrel on the 624 may be giving me a optical "delusion"

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Still Running Against the Wind

That is confusing. Never heard of 44Spl+P, save for the Skeeter.

Maybe the nominal 1.63" is the key. I'll have to measure up these Skeeters and see if they come in a bit long. Could be that a 200g bullet measures up shorter and therefore falls under the 1.63" figure.

BTW, you got the no dash 696 - very desirable! No MIM and I believe a hammer mounted firing pin.

Just my 2 cents but the Skeeter load is 7.5 gr Unique. You might match the velocity with 231 but at a different pressure. It will not be the Skeeter load any more than my Subaru traveling @ 80 mph makes it a Porsche when a Porsche is traveling @ 80 mph.

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Front sight and squeeze

Point taken, but unless the pressure difference - which is part of my quest here - is significantly different than the Skeeter, then the end result will end up being the same as the Skeeter, albeit with a different powder.

Therein lies the sticky wicket.

Let's say for example that the Skeeter produces 14000cup and the 231 produces 15000 cup, but the frame is good to 18000cup. Then it's no harm, no foul.

All figures above are off the top of my head and for example only, I do not have the figures needed to make any type of determination of what's possible or what the boundaries are - yet.

Lyman 49th Edition has some data with pressures.

429421 @ 245 gr
6.9 gr Unique 767 fps @ 13,300 CUP
5.5 gr W231 821 fps @ 13,100 CUP

Speer #10 used 15,900 CUP as the maximum pressure for all of the loads for .44 Special.

Speer #13 says 15,500 psi is the max pressure and they got (with a .44-250 K SWC RCBS):
6.9 gr Unique 921 fps with a 5.5" barrel.
6.2 gr W231 849 fps with the same barrel.

OMG!! I have not heard that for many, many years.

My Dad, who had a very proper English Background and loved Cricket, would use that and many other sayings.

Jolly Good!

TTFN

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Still Running Against the Wind

Nice!

2nd gen Italian here, but I do enjoy a good twist of phrase as well as the next man.

Hopefully your friend can run some numbers on his Quickload program, I'd sure like to get the skinny on 231's possibilities here.

I've been looking over my old (1950's) reloading books and there's plenty data on 4227, 2400 and others - including the Skeeter, but my heart belongs to 231.

When I get to the bottom of this, I'll be able to say...

Bob's yer uncle.

You just want a "load"named after you.

Either the Snapper or Twigster

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Still Running Against the Wind

Seems to me, a load of 6.5g W231/HP38 under a cast 250g SWC (lyman 429421) and a standard primer should be called the "250 Snapper".

Not quite a Skeeter, not in any dangerous territory using an N frame, over 800fps from a 3" barrel.

The 250 Snapper.

Thanks for that!

I have not heard back from the Quickload owner. Maybe he is on vacation (Holiday)

As I mentioned, the 6.0 grs of HP 38 under the 240 gr bullet was actually very mild so upping it a bit I do not think would be a problem

I loaded a bunch of 45 Colt today (my range day but it was raining) Using the 250 gr LSWC and 8.0gr of HP 38. Those shoot great and make a big hole

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Still Running Against the Wind

I hear you.

I'll be even more happy to use 7g in the Snapper, but I'll wait until your friend is Stateside for the defining info.

Thanks for your support on this quest. BTW, 7.5 ~ 8g of 231 is what I use in the Colt also, unless I have Unique and then it's 8.5 ~ 9g.

OK, unbelievable deal fell my way yesterday.

All the local places have been strip-mined for Unique, so I was on my quest to duplicate the Skeeter with 231.

I could buy from the net and pay the extra hazmat charge, buy bulk, get additional things to ameliorate the hazmat and eventually I will do that, but all I wanted was one pound of Unique at this time.

I loaded up 50 Snappers (6.5g 231) and off I went to the range for our last day of class.

Signing in I saw a pound of Accurate 1680 sitting behind the counter. I asked if they sold powder and they gave me a list of available selections.

There it was, three one pound containers of Unique, $19 each.

Being socially responsible, I bought one and left the others for someone else. Locally $19 is a good price and the tax was included, making it an even better price.

So, I believe I'll use Unique to make Skeeters and I'll use 231 to make Snappers. Snappers are a delight to shoot BTW. Slightly less than a Skeeter, but much more than factory. Please, if you haven't tried the Snapper, do so - you won't be dissappointed.

I believe my quest has given me a gift I wasn't looking for, as is usually the case with such things.

I tried to find one thing and another revealed itself to me. The Snapper is quite accurate, hard hitting and easy on the revolver. A full grain less than the Skeeter, it's more economical with a pound of powder.

Thank you all who participated in this effort. I had a great time with it and I hope you did too.

I'd still like to get the data for the Snapper, so if anyone has a Quicktime program and would care to do so, please let me know what 6.5g 231 under a 250g SWC comes to in pressure and velocity. I betting it's over 800fps and under 145000 cup.