Powder burn rates and the 45 ACP

I was comparing some powders for a basic 45 ACP, 230 gr FMJ.

Looking in the Lyman manual as they also list pressures I was curious as to why there is such a large variance in the powders burn rate but the pressures are all pretty close.?

The 45 ACP being a low pressure round it was odd that they (and other manuals) use such slow powders

The burn rates go from 12, 13,27, 31, 39. 37, 33, 36, 36,40, 52 and 49

From 770x and Bullseye to Longshot and Blue Dot?
So being a math person, I would throw out the highs and lows and use those in the middle but that eliminates Bullseye which folks rave about?

No wonder folks get confused over the "best" powder to use for different loads???

I used the current Hodgdon chart show here (so I do not need to type all the names)

Burn Rate

Can anyone shed some rational to this??

Cartridge/firearm combinations are designed for specific operating pressures. All standard ammunition is manufactured to deliver a peak pressure that conforms to industry standards, set by SAAMI.

Regarding burn rates, faster burning powders reach peak pressure faster than slower burning powders. That's why less is needed for similar velocities. There is nothing wrong with using recommended powders at the ends of the burn rate chart. Often, some of the best loads can be found there, in my experience.

No one can tell you what the "best" or "worst" powder is for any cartridge in your gun, although many will try. This is where a lot of the fun and satisfiaction of handloading come from. You have to figure that out for yourself.

Reloading manuals list powders that are less than ideal for just about every cartridge. Some people are stuck on one powder and want to use it for everything. Some may have a ton of powder they want to get rid of. So while a lot of the loads listed will work, they may not be great loads. They are just there to help people who want to use other powders.

As for 45 ACP, I tested lots of different powders, and you know where I ended up? Right back at the beginning with the original GI load, 5gr of Bullseye under a 230 FMJ.

Dragon88 said:

As for 45 ACP, I tested lots of different powders, and you know where I ended up? Right back at the beginning with the original GI load, 5gr of Bullseye under a 230 FMJ.

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Same here, though I use a bit lighter charge for cast boolit target loads.

My anti-zombie loads are 5gr BE under 230gr XTP. MMMMMMMMM...... brains!

A bit overanalized but hey...................

Rule3 said:

I was comparing some powders for a basic 45 ACP, 230 gr FMJ.

Looking in the Lyman manual as they also list pressures I was curious as to why there is such a large variance in the powders burn rate but the pressures are all pretty close.?

The 45 ACP being a low pressure round it was odd that they (and other manuals) use such slow powders

The burn rates go from 12, 13,27, 31, 39. 37, 33, 36, 36,40, 52 and 49

From 770x and Bullseye to Longshot and Blue Dot?
So being a math person, I would throw out the highs and lows and use those in the middle but that eliminates Bullseye which folks rave about?

No wonder folks get confused over the "best" powder to use for different loads???

I used the current Hodgdon chart show here (so I do not need to type all the names)

Burn Rate

Can anyone shed some rational to this??

Click to expand...

Well, personally, it would show you that there is a much wider range of useful powders than what you originally thought.

Adjust your thought process! That will fix things pretty well.

I have some loads that even use AA#9 in the ol' 45ACP! Imagine.

The powder choices are used for certain criteria. "Am I plinking, target shooting or hunting?"

Another contributing factor is the fact that this cartridge has been around for a long, long time and, handloaders being what they are, experimenters, have worked up loads from mild to wild.

Personally, I was under impressed with the Blue Dot loads I used and the AA#9 ones as well. I think that they might be more impressive in a carbine than the standard government model 1911.

If you get a revolver chambered in the caliber, and this might just be another factor in powder selection, you can wring out all the performance you can from the 45ACP in it.

If I was shooting the slower powders in a semi-auto, I would get a stiffer spring though. No sense in beating up a good gun.

Do you have something special in mind? Maybe we can go to the older "cook books" and find something to satisfy your hunger!

The thing with powder burn rate charts is, you have no idea as to how much different the burn rate between any two powders is. In other words, two powders side by side in the chart, can have a greater burn rate difference between them, than two powders which are several numbers apart.

Don

USSR said:

The thing with powder burn rate charts is, you have no idea as to how much different the burn rate between any two powders is. In other words, two powders side by side in the chart, can have a greater burn rate difference between them, than two powders which are several numbers apart.

Don

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Possible, but not likely. WHile the burn rate chart isn't gospel, powders can move one space up or down depending on the testing, it does give a good idea, along w/ a chronograph, of what the relative pressures are like between two powders in the same cartridge.
To the OP, when looking at a BR chart & loading manual, note how much more powder you need, as the powders get slower, to achieve the same vel as faster powders. If you plot the vel vs charge wt, you'll see slower powders have a gentle curve & faster powders a steeper curve. That is all the burn rate chart is telling you. The gentle curve allows a longer burn time & higher velocity & still have safe pressures.
So is there an ideal powder for any given cartridge, not really IMO. There is a range of powders, but we have so many to choose, tough to say w/ any honesty that this or that powder is THE one. You mentioned BE for the 45acp, I tried it way back some 30yrs ago, never went back. Some guys are stuck on it, but there are other powders that give the same level of accuracy w/ sim powder charge wts & cleaner burning. So get a couple manuals, study them, decide on what vel level you want to run & buy a # & try it. I lump powder into catagories when deciding on what to buy for a new cartridge or application:
Uberfast powders; for light target loads ONLY, anything faster than VV320
Fast powders; for light target to midrange in most calibers, powders between VV320 & IMR7625medium burners; the most useful IMO, covers a wid range of calibers & vel levels w/ safe prassure, not the best for bunnyfart loads, powders between Unique & IMR4756.
slow powders; best for higher vel loads, +P loads & magnum pressures, powders from 800X to BlueDot
uberslow pwoders; these are the top choice for full power magnum rounds, powders form 2400 to H4227.
There may be some up & down cross over between certain calibers, but I have found that to work for me. While you can make any powder go bang in any handgun round, there are better choices for certain applications.

You never know, I've always used Bullseye, 231, WST, #2, #5 in my .45s.
Recently picked up Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. It listed Blue Dot loads for the 230 LRN.
So, I loaded up a test range.
Lo and behold, 8.5 Blue Dot shot better in my 625 than anything I'd ever shot in it.

We are all "dancing" around the same thing, just saying it differently.

Usually the slower powders are for the higher pressure rounds or trying to eek out more velocity out of say a 38 Special

In the one example ( I just chose the common 45 ACP) this manual has the fastest powder 700x as the most accurate but then they list Blue Dot one of the slowest and considered to be a Magnum powder.

Then jumping over to say 9mm 115 JHP you have a lot of the same powders. The results again are all at about the same pressure(I realize they test to get below max specs) but the velocities are all pretty darn close +/- 100 fps so it would seem it doesn't matter what powder is used?
If I am going to get the same velocity and same pressure then how can one be "more accurate" than another.

That is the Zen question for the evening

Rule3 said:

If I am going to get the same velocity and same pressure then how can one be "more accurate" than another.

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That's part of the "black magic" or whatever you want to call it of reloading. Some powders are just known to be exceptionally accurate in certain cartridges. For example, 2400 in 44 Magnum. It's not the fastest option, it's not the slowest, but consistently it is one of the most accurate in a wide range of revolvers.

Dragon88 said:

That's part of the "black magic" or whatever you want to call it of reloading. Some powders are just known to be exceptionally accurate in certain cartridges. For example, 2400 in 44 Magnum. It's not the fastest option, it's not the slowest, but consistently it is one of the most accurate in a wide range of revolvers.

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Yes I like 2400 also, but then some other Magician will come by and say H 110 is better.

Roy,
You want mathematical answers for factors that involve humans, case being, accuracy.

Now some use the test barrel and lab to determine their accuracy findings while others use real world guns and people to shoot them. There may be a mechanical rest involved too, depends on the facility and who is doing the testing.

PM me your email address, please. I seem to have lost it during a computer upgrade!

Here is one thing I have found out about my shooting idiosyncrasies. I shoot hot loads better when I load them with slower powders. I think it is because of the type of recoil. Sharp and radical or more drawn out and softer, kinda.

As for the reason for such a wide range of powders for the 45ACP, I really feel that it is because some perceived need arose and someone wanted to give it a try.

I still want to take a bunch of 230gr bullets and load them with some real slow powder and run them through my 16.5" Thompson to see what they will do.

Remember, there was only a 17fps increase per inch of additional barrel. Bet that changes a bunch when I load up some of those AA#9 loads!

Rule3 said:

Yes I like 2400 also, but then some other Magician will come by and say H 110 is better.

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H110 singes my eyebrows, I dunno if that makes it better or not... I once attempted to reach 2000 fps with 44 magnum, 180gr XTPs and H110. Loudest load I have ever shot in my life. But I made it!

Back to your original question about a 230gr .45ACP load. I like almost all of the lead bullet configurations in 230gr, and I like Unique in them all, revolver and pistol as well. And I have found varying ammounts of that powder and bullet combination on the net-personally I like less than 6gr of Unique-it is more than adequare for anything I would use a .45ACP hand gun for. I also prefer Winchester large pistol primers. They are for standard and magnum loads, and seem to help things burn a little cleaner, and they definitely make a difference , and should be factored in to your recipe. Go safely. Flapjack.

H110-opened doors

Rule3 said:

Yes I like 2400 also, but then some other Magician will come by and say H 110 is better.

Click to expand...

H110 does not have loading range of 2400, but H110 along with its cousin powder, WW296, have opened up the reloading of such caliburs as 454 Casull, 475 and 500 Linebaugh. Before the development of these powders, the only wayto obtain the ballicstics was with the use of Triplex loads that generated uncontrolable pressures.

The 45 Auto is a low pressure round that is not fussy. There are so many powder that will do a fair job that fact will throw your way of thinking off. I have loaded the 45 Auto with a lot of powders including Clays, W231, Red Dot, Green Dot, Unique, Universal, AA#5, HS-6 and probably a few others I just can't remember right now. They all worked well although my favorite powder is still W231 followed by HS-6 for more serious work...

ArchAngelCD said:

The 45 Auto is a low pressure round that is not fussy. There are so many powder that will do a fair job that fact will throw your way of thinking off. I have loaded the 45 Auto with a lot of powders including Clays, W231, Red Dot, Green Dot, Unique, Universal, AA#5, HS-6 and probably a few others I just can't remember right now. They all worked well although my favorite powder is still W231 followed by HS-6 for more serious work...

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I also use HP38/W 231 almost exclusively.

I guess my reason for this post was not aimed at loads for the 45 ACP but more at loads in general for any caliber.

The difference in the burn rates listed of the tested powders is so broad, from real fast to real slow.

So I was trying to determine how they(manuals) or anyone arrive at the "best" for each caliber. As I mention previously, the same pressures and velocities can be reached with all of them.

As Dragon88 mention I guess it's "black magic"

Looking at the opposite in the 9mm a high pressure round, the powders are just as varied??

It's like when someone posts a question, what's a good load for xx caliber with xx bullet. Every answer is different. Or it's Unique for everything

It just does not compute with me.

In light loads with 185 gr, LSWC (ca 720 fps) I prefer the faster burning powders such as VV N-310, Clays, HS-700X, WST or Bullseye.

Rule3 said:

I also use HP38/W 231 almost exclusively.

I guess my reason for this post was not aimed at loads for the 45 ACP but more at loads in general for any caliber.

The difference in the burn rates listed of the tested powders is so broad, from real fast to real slow.

So I was trying to determine how they(manuals) or anyone arrive at the "best" for each caliber. As I mention previously, the same pressures and velocities can be reached with all of them.

As Dragon88 mention I guess it's "black magic"

Looking at the opposite in the 9mm a high pressure round, the powders are just as varied??

It's like when someone posts a question, what's a good load for xx caliber with xx bullet. Every answer is different. Or it's Unique for everything

It just does not compute with me.

Click to expand...

Um, I guess the simple answer is that the testers measure the groups and determine that way.


Maybe that is overly simplistic but, how else could they say that xx load is more accurate than xy load unless you measure a test group of each from the same firearm, whether it is a test barrel, at real handgun or rifle or whatever.

Then it isn't speculation, it is fact. "xx group fired from our test barrel measured a .xxx" and group xy measured .xx1"."

I guess that I am naive enough to think that is how it is done in a lab.

As for you or I saying this or that, there is way too much speculation in how we arrived at our conclusions to make them scientific at all.

Don't try to over analyze either. Some folks like a slow push recoil and shoot them well. Others, snappy makes them happy. Some are just happy that they can hit the paper @ 25 yards, others need groups in the decimal point size. One firearm may like xx group while another of the exact same configuration made on a different day, likes group xy better.

The ONLY thing you can be sure of is what your firearms and you shoot best. That is the only test that should matter anyway as you don't have the firearms that the manuals tested their loads with.

One falacy looking at charts is if you assume powders that have similar PEAK pressures push the bullet out the same way, you are wrong!

If you can get your hands on the full graph of pressure for the load, you see that Bullseye peaks rapidly and has significantly dropped off by the time the bullet exits.
A slower powder like Blue Dot peaks later and has a more "square shouldered" curve, ie, a higher average pressure, and a higher pressure at the muzzle.

The USPSA Open Division shooters with their compensators on the barrel select powders that give a higher muzzle pressure and make the comps work better, eg, HS6.