I am looking to duplicate the factory Remington 357 Mag mid mag load to 1200 fps with their Golden Saber bonded JHP in 125 grains.

Gun is a 19 4" barrel, and I'm using CCI 500 primers and would like to use Hodgdon Universal to get there.

Anyone have a rough idea what it will take in grains to achieve this? 7.0 gr, 7.5 gr? I have a hodgdon manual that states I can go alot hotter than that, but they tested in a 7" closed breech barrel.


Any suggestions with this powder is welcome, it seems to burn quite close in speed to the old dirty Hercules Unique of my youth.

I make essentially the same load with a near-max load of HP38.
In Universal, I think you are also going to need a near-max load for a real 4" bbl revolver.

The next part is where you use your chronograph to see what you are actually getting and fine tune as necessary.

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Science plus Art

What is the list of components that you are using?

Fed or Rem case
Rem bullet 125gr
HP38 (see Hodgdon data)
Win Small pistol primer

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Science plus Art

Hodgdon does not list test data for the Golden Saber, they use the Hornady XTP , they also use Winchester primers so it's all different and just an approximation.

The only way to get close, is as mentioned, is with a Chronograph. You need to test the factory loads out of your gun and see what the numbers are and then load your own and compare.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Are you using the scalloped 125 gr JHP .357 bullet or the Golden Saber 125 BJHP in your load?

I load both the same. YMMV.

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Science plus Art

Thanks, I don't have access to a chrony these days. Just need to be close and find what shoots accurately and is easy on the frame without gas cutting.

My $130 PACT XP chrono has saved me $hundreds and lots of frustration NOT trying to guess at handloads.
You really need a chrono for reloading, so talk your buddy into getting one you can use--or maybe hint for Christmas?

PACT Inc. - Model 1 XP Chronograph

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Science plus Art

Keep in mind that the advertised velocity of 1220 fps is out of their test barrel, not your 4" barrel. Without a chronograph you will need to guesstimate this one on felt recoil, a very imprecise way of doing it.

Remington Ballistics Calculator

I do not know of any manuals that show specific test data for the GS bullet.

Probably the closest is the Speer Gold Dot.

The Speer manual shows for a 125 gr GD or FMJ using H Universal a range of 7.5=1148fps and a MAX of 8.2 for 1200 FPS BUT this is out of a 6" SW M 19.

Of course everything here is different as to test conditions so again, you will have different results using different components and with out being able to measure with a chrono it's just guess work or a "shot in the dark"

So as they say, start low and use at your own risk.

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Still Running Against the Wind

My Speer #13 lists 7.5 to a maximum of 8.2grs of Universal with their 125gr JHPs delivering a velocity range of 1,148 fps to 1,200 fps using CCI 500 primers. While I have not used Universal powder I have found the velocity estimates in the #13 manual to be very close to what I get from my 4" model 66 and 19 from Unique when run over a chrono.

Thanks for confirming that

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Still Running Against the Wind

Thank you Steve C.

I ran some tests today with 7.5 of Universal, CCI 500 in Winchester cases with the Rem 125 Golden Sabers and primers look fine. No excessive flattening. The CCI primers seem to have a really thick cup and don't show signs of pressure anything like the Federal 100 SP primers I've used in the past. temps were in the mid 90's, so if a load is going to show some pressure from the heat, today would be the day.

I am just amazed at how little residue from powder is on the gun after testing 70 rounds, and my gun seems to shoot pretty darn straight and consistent with this round.

Next step... 8.0 grains of Universal. Then on to some water and expansion tests.

The Golden Saber 125 gr bullet is a bore rider, i.e. the driving band is the only thing full bore sized. It will usually give you a little more velocity than a standard 125 gr bullet, mainly due to producing less friction. The 125 gr GS I shoot in .38 Special brass generates over 1200 fps with SR 4756 in a 4" M66, so I don't consider that kind of velocity to be in the .357 range.

Lee 2nd Edition says the max .357 load is 7.6 gr of Universal at 1526 fps and 39600 cup with a 125 gr XTP, but 7.1 gr will give you 1428 fps. I don't know where Lee got those numbers, but they sound a little fast to me.

I'm interested in a load that is not going to be punishing on the gun in question, a model 19-3 with a portion of the barrel on the bottom relieved to allow the cylinder locking crane to fit in. I am also interested in a load that is not going to be gas cutting on the top strap too. So any really slow burning powders are off of my list.

In your 38 special load, are you using the 38 bullets or the 357 bullets? I ask, because one of them ends in 32 for the part number, the other ends in 40 for the part number.


Hence my looking for less velocity, and a medium burn rate on the powder in a 357 mag case.

Obviously, a M66-2 is the same gun as the M19, except for being stainless.

In my experience, the flame cutters are ball or very small extruded (2400) powders. SR 4756 is a flake powder that meters better than Unique/Universal and gives better performance, being a little slower burning. However, it can also be loaded at lower charge weights without a problem. Being a single based powder, it also has less flash due to the absence of any nitroglycerin.

I do have a pound of Universal and a pound of Unique, but I keep 8 or 9 pounds of SR 4756 on hand, because of its versatility.

I have both .38 Special and .357 GS bullets and use the appropriate one for the velocity I'm loading.

What velocities are your loading the 38 special versions to, and what velocities are you loading the 357 versions to, if I might ask.

Sounds like you are going 1200 fps plus with the 38 special versions?

I think I saw a box of GS in .38 Special that indicated a clocked 1350 fps. I usually get 1600+ in .357 Mag. The same .357 Mag load using a Sierra JHC only clocks 1575 fps.

I still haven't gotten moved into my new loading room, so much of my data is in the old loading room.

What length barrel are you employing to get 1575 fps in a S&W 66? Have you chronographed that load, as it sounds exceedingly hot, or optimistic, with todays pressure standards in a 357 mag.

When I clocked those at 1620 fps, they were shot out of a 6" Security Six. The 1575 fps loads were clocked out of a 6" M28-2. With a .5 gr reduced load, I clocked 1460 fps out of a 4" M66-2.

I normally load at the original SAAMI pressure specs of 45,000 cup. Regardless of what anyone says, they aren't going to produce the same at 35,000 psi. I've been shooting that Sierra load since 1972 and to the surprise of most, I've never had a problem and no flame cutting!

Here's the M28-2 I bought new in 1972.



This is the same gun after shooting its first 5 H110 loads using 125 gr bullets.



Here's the M66-2 with very little flame cutting (no, I don't shoot H110/W296 in it).

There is quite a bit more barrel diameter shank protruding on your 28 than on a 19, and 2 more inches of barrel helps a lot with slow burning powders like 296 or 2400. That Sierra manual your refer to at 45000 CUP is interesting... I was under the impression that shot guns and pistols were done under LUP and centerfire rifles were measured under the copper cups, though maybe with that level of pressure, 45000, they did measure with copper.

By todays SAAMI loading standards and manuals, those would be considered overloads. Any idea what the ambient air temps were when you cracked off those 1600 fps loads over the chronograph? If you could buy a model 28 back in 1972, you're a little older than me, but I did start reloading a couple years after that.

The SAAMI pressure spec is still 45,000 cup, or 35,000 psi, according to the Starline brass people.

The ambient temperature was 73 degrees on 1/23/04.

The assumption would be in favor of the 6" being faster than the 4", but that really isn't the case all the time, like this one. Here's some .38 Special data where I used both guns over the chrony.



The purpose of the data was to check identical loads from different lots of powder to see how much validity there is in the "new powder is different from old powder" theory. The old lot of SR4756 isn't from 1956, I misread the lot number, but it is DuPont vs the IMR version I have from 2004.

My first new gun was bought in 1965, when I got out of the Navy.