Howdy all,

The short question:

Has anyone experienced any problems with feeding flat-point bullets in a 3rd-gen S&W pistol?

The longer question:

I recently obtained a S&W Model 3904 and took it to the range for the first time a few days back. I had two failures to go into battery when I tried to fire a flat-point load- specifically, 124gr Berry's plated flat-points over 3.6gr of Titegroup, which is a minimum LCN load in the manuals I have.

I only recently started using plated 9mm bullets, and didn't initially realize that Berry's recommends using a slightly hotter powder charge with their bullets vs. cast lead. I thought that this load felt a bit "fluffy" and there was a lot of powder residue on the cases when I used it in my M&P; despite this, the M&P eats it like candy, so I didn't see any reason to pull the remaining 80+/- bullets and start over- I figured I'd just use 'em up and ratchet up the powder charges later.

The 3904 functioned 100% with a 124gr Berry's plated round-nose bullet over hotter powder charges (3.8gr of Titegroup and 4.4gr of HP-38).

Question is this: Were the 3904 malfs caused by the bullet shape or the inadequate powder charge? I'm thinking the latter, but I'd like to hear a second opinion before I order 1,000 FP bullets.

I do not use Titegroup so can not say on that. I do use HP 38 for just about everything.

The load data for Berrys Plated is midrange of the FMJ data.

I would try some loads with HP 38 but a tad higher (look at the 125 gr bullet data online)

Your 39 should feed anything. How old is the recoil spring and Mag springs?? Those are the first things I change when buying a older gun. They are so cheap and then you know what you have.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Probaby not, but may be an issue with the cartridge length. What is the OAL of the cartridges you loaded?

failure to go into battery how? nose hanging up before it finds the chamber? or is it a case where the shell does go home but just wont quite make it all the way in?

the first case can be powder charge being weak in the poop causing a short cycle or the design dont play nice in your gun.
the second case can be OAL causing the shank of the bullet to be out of the case just far enough to rest upon your rifling or it can be a case where you need just a hair more crimp to avoid the case mouth wedging in the chamber. third or, slight over sized bullet causing the same issue.

then again there can be yet another cause ... clean your gun. a fungus filled chamber takes space that may be intended for a cartridge.

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it just needs more voltage

I find Berry's Bullets to be on the short side for their weight. Obviously this is because they are pure lead, not a jacketed bullet.

The second one.
I like this theory. I'm leaning towards the rifling hypothesis because I loaded the rounds somewhat long; ~1.14" OAL IIRC, but I'll have to go measure one. I'm accustomed to loading for revolvers where if it fits in the cylinder, it'll work, so I haven't generally worried too much about a too-long OAL in the past. This would also explain another problem I had- the pistol was unusually difficult to clear when it stuck out of battery. Now that I think about it, this seems consistent with the bullet being jammed in the rifling.

On a related note, I also fired a mag full of 124gr Fiocchi Extrema JHP factory ammo through the gun, and they worked fine. These are loaded with a Hornady XTP bullet with a shape similar to the Berry's flat-point, but they have a noticeably shorter OAL. I'm going to measure the OAL of these rounds and see how they compare to my handloads.

I use the following load in my 952 and 639.

124 grain hollow base flat point Berry's plated bullet
3.7 grains Bullseye powder
Federal 100 primer
Mixed range pickup cases
OAL 1.090"

Runs great in both my pistols. No feeding or extraction problems and accuracy is outstanding. This is a soft shooting load that will work with standard recoil springs.

Good Luck...

Joe

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Go NRA

I got some STAR 115JSP, which look a lot like the Berry plated. When I load to same length as RN or HP, the soft points are fatter further out. Same symptoms you desrcibe. Started loading them shorter and no issues since.

OK, here's the results of some tests and measurements over the weekend.

Loads that functioned fine:

3.8gr Titegroup, 124gr Berry's PRN: OAL 1.161"
4.2gr HP-38, 124gr Berry's PRN: OAL 1.155"
Fiocchi Extrema, 124gr Hornady XTP: OAL 1.093"

The Bad Load:

3.6gr Titegroup, 124gr Berry's PFN: OAL 1.129"

The transition from the conical point to the shank of the bullet- the "shoulder", so to speak- was ~0.03" further forward on the bad handload than the Fiocchi factory load with a similar bullet shape. (max was correct; the PFN's are slightly shorter than the XTP's, so it's not a direct apples-to-apples comparison.)

Second test: I loaded up some dummy rounds using a few spare Berry's PFN's at different OAL's. I seated one at ~1.13", like the bad handload, and the slide stuck shut! Upon getting it open- after some grunting and cursing- the bullet was found to have distinct rifling marks on the shoulder. Another test round seated at ~1.12" had slight rifling contact but the slide operated normally. A third test round ~1.10" had no rifling contact.

Conclusion: Venom's rifling theory was correct; OAL was the problem. Berry's PFN rounds need to have an OAL around 1.09"-1.10" for reliable functioning in my M3904.

Hodgdon's online load data calls for an OAL of 1.090" for the slightly longer 124gr Hornady XTP, and since Berry's advises handloaders to use lower-end jacketed bullet data, I'm going to run with this OAL recommendation.