Hodgdon H110 and 240 grain SWC

[gdodgen]

I'm finally ready to start reloading. I've been working on my setup for about a year. I built my bench, ordered all my equipment, have some components rounded up, and now I'm finally ready to get started. I was wanting to load up some 44 magnum loads using Missouri Bullet Company's Keith style 240 grain SWC cast bullets using Hodgdon H110 but my Speer manual only gives a loading for a 250 grain cast bullet if using H110. All the research I've done online suggests that a common load is 23 or 24 grains of H110 with a 240 grain bullet, but most scenarios were implying that bullets other than cast bullets were being used. Hogdon's website has data for H110 with a 240 grain JHP bullet but that is all. Can I use H110 with my 240 grain cast SWC bullets?

[Rule3]

You can use the data for the next higher weight bullet of the same type safely. So use the LEAD data for the 250 grain. I do not have my manuals here so that is up to you.

[BLUEDOT37]

Originally Posted by gdodgen

...but most scenarios were implying that bullets other than cast bullets were being used.

Hi fellow Okie,

Did you get the cast/greased or HT-coated Keith bullets? (I've gotten the latter from them.)

You can use H110/W296 for those but they'll have to be full power loads. You can't load down those powders. (Hodgdon has lots of cast bullet data for the 240gr, just not for H110.)

Lyman is probably the best source for cast bullet data. Buy all the books you can find. It's better than using "implyed" data.

Those Keith bullets are bevel-base, not the preferred (IMO) flat-base cast bullets, for full power loads. Depending on your gun, & other factors, they may give you leading problems, in full power loads. Load a few to try first & adjust as needed. Lyman's data is for Linotype bullets (22 BHN) where those MBC's are 18 BHN.

Per Lyman #49, you can use 22.5gr to 23.5gr for the 240gr SWC-BB & 24.0 to 25.0gr for the 245gr SWC-FB.

You can use the Speer 250gr cast data for your lighter 240gr bullets.

Now order those manuals!

.

Missouri Bullets 452-250HT & 430-240HT


.

[JBnTx]

I use 23grs of H-110 with the Missouri Bullet's 240gr SWC in the 44 Magnum.

That's my favorite 44 Magnum load.

[scooter123]

Notes on H110 from lessons learned from loading 357 Magnums with this powder.

First, it's not a powder I consider suitable for use in a handgun. Even with a 158 grain bullet the muzzle flash, B/C Gap flash, and muzzle blast is something I consider rather extreme. How bad? The Gas Jet from a B/C Gap of 0.006 inch is enough to blow a 10x12 inch paper target off the shooting bench. It's also bad enough that I worry about gas cutting. All this excess flash and muzzle blast indicates that a lot of unburned powder is being ignited AFTER the bullet leaves the barrel and powder not being used to propel a bullet is powder wasted.

However, out of a rifle this powder is absolutely WONDERFUL. It burns cleanly, produces great accuracy, and loading with it is a joy due to it great metering properties. When I did a 50 pc. Capability study on the metering from my RCBS Competition the SD came in at 0.03 grain.

Second, there is that bit about not loading with H110 at less than full power. Frankly I don't buy that bit for a New York Minute, it's something that has been repeated for years without ANY foundation in Fact. How can I say this, it's pretty simple. All you have to do is look at the recommended Load Data from Hornady and Hodgdon. Both sources for load data that are considered trustworthy and responsible. So, explain why, for the 158 grain Hornady XTP that Hornady recommends a load range of 12.7 to 15.6 grains and Hodgdon starts at 15.0 grains and goes to 16.7 grains. So, what's the deal, is that 12.7 grain starting load recommended by Hornady a "dangerous undercharge" or simply a safe starting point as tested by a pretty darned good ammunition and bullet manufacturer.

Now, I'm not saying that you should load with a 5 grain charge of H110, that would probably result in a squib stuck in your barrel. However I am saying that you can safely use a powder charge that is less than the full powder charge listed by any reputable source. Even a starting charge from one listing that is only 74% of the full power charge in another listing. My personal pet load for H110 with the 158 grain XTP is 14.8 grains and it works very well at 1615 fps with an ES of 11 fps from my 20 inch Winchester.

Note, I ONLY use Magnum primers (CCI) with H110 as per every single load table I was able to access for this powder. So, do NOT try and "get by" with a non magnum primer. Because when every single provider of loading data recommends the use of a specific type of primer there is usually a reason for that. While it may not be specifically hazardous to use a non magnum powder I expect that the performance of the ammunition resulting would likely be degraded by inconsistent ignition.

[gdodgen]

Thanks for the info! I have these, obviously the bevel based.



I have 1,000 of em so I guess that's what I'm going with. I will probably order the 250 grain bullets next time. Got three more manuals on order right now! I plan on shooting these loads through my Ruger SRH and my 629s.

Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37

Hi fellow Okie,

Did you get the cast/greased or HT-coated Keith bullets? (I've gotten the latter from them.)

You can use H110/W296 for those but they'll have to be full power loads. You can't load down those powders. (Hodgdon has lots of cast bullet data for the 240gr, just not for H110.)

Lyman is probably the best source for cast bullet data. Buy all the books you can find. It's better than using "implyed" data.

Those Keith bullets are bevel-base, not the preferred (IMO) flat-base cast bullets, for full power loads. Depending on your gun, & other factors, they may give you leading problems, in full power loads. Load a few to try first & adjust as needed. Lyman's data is for Linotype bullets (22 BHN) where those MBC's are 18 BHN.

Per Lyman #49, you can use 22.5gr to 23.5gr for the 240gr SWC-BB & 24.0 to 25.0gr for the 245gr SWC-FB.

You can use the Speer 250gr cast data for your lighter 240gr bullets.

Now order those manuals!

.

Missouri Bullets 452-250HT & 430-240HT


.

[gdodgen]

I have Federal large pistol match primers (GM150M)...assuming these are sufficient?

Originally Posted by scooter123

Notes on H110 from lessons learned from loading 357 Magnums with this powder.

First, it's not a powder I consider suitable for use in a handgun. Even with a 158 grain bullet the muzzle flash, B/C Gap flash, and muzzle blast is something I consider rather extreme. How bad? The Gas Jet from a B/C Gap of 0.006 inch is enough to blow a 10x12 inch paper target off the shooting bench. It's also bad enough that I worry about gas cutting. All this excess flash and muzzle blast indicates that a lot of unburned powder is being ignited AFTER the bullet leaves the barrel and powder not being used to propel a bullet is powder wasted.

However, out of a rifle this powder is absolutely WONDERFUL. It burns cleanly, produces great accuracy, and loading with it is a joy due to it great metering properties. When I did a 50 pc. Capability study on the metering from my RCBS Competition the SD came in at 0.03 grain.

Second, there is that bit about not loading with H110 at less than full power. Frankly I don't buy that bit for a New York Minute, it's something that has been repeated for years without ANY foundation in Fact. How can I say this, it's pretty simple. All you have to do is look at the recommended Load Data from Hornady and Hodgdon. Both sources for load data that are considered trustworthy and responsible. So, explain why, for the 158 grain Hornady XTP that Hornady recommends a load range of 12.7 to 15.6 grains and Hodgdon starts at 15.0 grains and goes to 16.7 grains. So, what's the deal, is that 12.7 grain starting load recommended by Hornady a "dangerous undercharge" or simply a safe starting point as tested by a pretty darned good ammunition and bullet manufacturer.

Now, I'm not saying that you should load with a 5 grain charge of H110, that would probably result in a squib stuck in your barrel. However I am saying that you can safely use a powder charge that is less than the full powder charge listed by any reputable source. Even a starting charge from one listing that is only 74% of the full power charge in another listing. My personal pet load for H110 with the 158 grain XTP is 14.8 grains and it works very well at 1615 fps with an ES of 11 fps from my 20 inch Winchester.

Note, I ONLY use Magnum primers (CCI) with H110 as per every single load table I was able to access for this powder. So, do NOT try and "get by" with a non magnum primer. Because when every single provider of loading data recommends the use of a specific type of primer there is usually a reason for that. While it may not be specifically hazardous to use a non magnum powder I expect that the performance of the ammunition resulting would likely be degraded by inconsistent ignition.

[Rule3]

The OP wanted to know if he can use H110 with a 240 grain bullet and use 250 data.

Yes he can.

H110 is very well suited to use in a handgun

H110 due to the large volume of powder used and changes in pressure should always be used with the recommended load data.

I agree the this load data is all over the place depending on were you look and the do not reduce more than 3% rule is broken in many sources Hodgden included.

[snowman]

Originally Posted by gdodgen

I have Federal large pistol match primers (GM150M)...assuming these are sufficient?

Sir,

The Federal large pistol magnum primers are what you want; they are #155s("GM155M" is the match grade designation).

Best wishes,
Andy

[scooter123]

No, they are NOT sufficient because they are NOT Magnum primers, they are simply standard primers manufactured to be exceptionally consistent. You really need to look for some Large Pistol Magnum primers. In the Federal lineup the LP Match Magnum primer carries the number GM155M.

BTW, I've never seen any need, or difference, with the Match Primers and personally think it's a lot of Hype.

[gwpercle]

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #4 shows data for 44 Magnum, 240 grain cast bullet #429667 and H110.
starting load......22.5 grains @ 1204 fps
maximum load...23.5 grains @ 1266 fps
All loads with MAGNUM Large Pistol primers.
You can load them with standard primers but if both Hodgen and Lyman say to use magnums, I use them.
Gary

[Rule3]

You need MAGNUM primers for H110/W296 or Winchester LPP which are good for both regular and Magnum. Maybe Federals have the same energy??

Federals web site is confusing in describing the Magnum and Match primers they call one a revolver primer but both say magnum??

https://www.federalpremium.com/products/components.aspx


I am not recommending it, but I myself would try 5 or 6 rounds with the primers and see. What is the worst that can happen? Some unburned powder, I doubt a squib but even so just bring a dowel to tap it out but I really would be surprised. Just load on round at a time.



The only drawback of H110 vs Alliant 2400. H110 may give a little more top end but no worth it in my opinion. I prefer 2400 for that reason and it can be downloaded more.


Off track a bit here:

I have found that with CCI primers in the 30 carbine. A CCI SR will ignite as well or better than a SPM primer. Tested side by side with chronograph the results are pretty much identical.

I only used this in the actual carbine so the primer strikes were fine.

Kind like the hype of using Military type 41 primers in 223/5.56 To avoid slam fires.
Gee what did we use before they sold us those?. The manuals call for small rifle.

[gdodgen]

Thanks for all the info guys. I definitely have a lot to learn. I guess I was making an incorrect assumption that large pistol primers were the correct primer. When I bought primers I got 500 large and 500 small and didn't even think about magnum primers. The guy I purchased them from did a lot of handloading for match pistol so I guess that explains why he had match grade primers, for what it's worth. Glad I only primed 50 cases! Just got on Amazon and ordered the 4th edition of Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook as well.

[Rule3]

Is H110 the only powder you have? There are many other powders that will work for the 44 mag and do not require magnum primers.
2400 is an excellent Mag powder

Unique and HP38 (and others) can give you lighter loads. Those full house 44 Mags are fun to shoot but how many can you shoot and still be comfortable?

[gdodgen]

I have some TiteGroup. Would this be a better option? I notice that Hodgdon has some data on their web site for TiteGroup with a 240 grain LSWC.

Originally Posted by Rule3

Is H110 the only powder you have? There are many other powders that will work for the 44 mag and do not require magnum primers.
2400 is an excellent Mag powder

Unique and HP38 (and others) can give you lighter loads. Those full house 44 Mags are fun to shoot but how many can you shoot and still be comfortable?

[colt_saa]

I love H110. Over the past several decades I have easily burned 100 pounds of it in my 357 and 41 Magnums alone.

Your powder and projectile combination can be used together.

However, if this is your first venture into hand-loading, H110 is not a powder to be learning on. Do you realize this is a MAX load powder only. H110 is not to be used for mid-range or light loads

You should be getting your feet wet with something that is far more forgiving of mistakes and somewhat more versatile. Unique, 231, HP38 are all great powders to start with. They will offer you everything from light to mid-range to moderate heavy loads in the 44 Magnum.

As to projectiles, a bevel base is easier to load. If you are going to load them as mid-range loads with 231 or unique, the bevel base is just fine, but the BB will increase leading when used with powders that run at higher temperatures.

You said you bought the primers from a Match shooter. Have you talked loading with him? Perhaps he would spend some time with you on the basics or even let you watch while he loads. A skilled buddy in the neighborhood that will help you is better then a hundred of us on the Internet

[alwslate]

Actually in the 44 magnum H110 is far more forgiving than any of the
faster powders like HP38. A standard full charge of H110 fills the case
to the base of the bullet so double charging is impossible. The general
consensus is that it wouldn't be possible to get enough H110 in the
case and seat a 240-250 gr bullet to actually blow up a revolver. My
Lyman #4 cast bullet manual shows a maximum charge of 25.0 grs
under their 245 gr 429421 cast SWC at 35,300 CUP. This will probably
be lightly compressed and it's at less pressure than several other full
power loads. The lower charge listed for the 240 gr bullet is because
it's not a SWC but more of a RNFP with greater bearing surface. Go by
the data for the 245 gr bullet.

[BruceM]

However, if this is your first venture into hand-loading, H110 is not a powder to be learning on.

This is about 300% bogus. It's easier to use because it is used for full power loads only. You cannot double charge a case. You cannot cause a kaboom because the necessary propellent to cause that event will not fit in the case with a properly seated bullet and an undercharge will result in a squib. All you have to do is use the propellant as directed. If you feel you are unable to read and follow directions, possibly a hobby other than handloading should be in your future. If you can follow directions, using H110/W296 is a "can of corn".

First, it's not a powder I consider suitable for use in a handgun. Even with a 158 grain bullet the muzzle flash, B/C Gap flash, and muzzle blast is something I consider rather extreme. How bad? The Gas Jet from a B/C Gap of 0.006 inch is enough to blow a 10x12 inch paper target off the shooting bench. It's also bad enough that I worry about gas cutting. All this excess flash and muzzle blast indicates that a lot of unburned powder is being ignited AFTER the bullet leaves the barrel and powder not being used to propel a bullet is powder wasted.

This is another statement of dubious validity. If you want to say that H110/W296 isn't the most efficient when used in .357 magnum revolvers, that's one thing. To say it isn't suitable is quite another. What H110/W296 offers in the .357 magnum is very high velocity and accuracy with relatively low chamber pressures. Regardless of the amount of muzzle flash, this cannot be denied. Unless you are using this ammunition in a self defense situation under low light conditions; who cares about muzzle flash as long as you are getting very high levels of ballistic performance. The .357 is one cartridge where I give 2400 a very slight edge over H110. This does not make H110 unsuitable however. In .41 and .44 Magnum loads, H110 wins hands down in most handguns.

To the OP, the "Keith SWC's" you have are not really Keith style bullets. They are SWC's but not the same shape of a true Keith style SWC. Keith style SWC's have long noses, three driving bands of equal width and a deep, square bottom grease groove of width equal to the driving bands. Also, a Keith bullet never is a bevel base design. True 44 Caliber Keith style bullets are dropped from H&G #503 and later Lyman #429421 molds. Missouri Bullets can say what they want but....

You'll be just fine using H110 to build full power ammunition but use maximum or very near maximum charges with a magnum or Winchester LP primer. You also need very stout neck tension in the sized cases and a heavy roll crimp.

Bruce

[mule69]

You will have no problem using H110 with your SWC's. It is my favorite powder and your .44 magnum will shoot like it was designed for.

[Rule3]

Originally Posted by gdodgen

I have some TiteGroup. Would this be a better option? I notice that Hodgdon has some data on their web site for TiteGroup with a 240 grain LSWC.

No.
..............

[BLUEDOT37]

Originally Posted by gdodgen

I have 1,000 of em so I guess that's what I'm going with. I will probably order the 250 grain bullets next time. Got three more manuals on order right now! I plan on shooting these loads through my Ruger SRH and my 629s.

No problem. Even if you have to drop down to moderate loads with them you can go with 2400 (16-17gr) & have a good range/target round.

I haven't used cast lead/greased bullets for full magnum loads since we used to buy bars of printers lead (linotype) at the local newspaper & cast our own bullets, way back when people used to read newspapers.

Let us know how they shoot.

.

[BruceM]

Even if you have to drop down to moderate loads with them you can go with 2400 (16-17gr) & have a good range/target round.

Just because you can do something does not mean it's a good idea. 2400 works best at near maximum charges and the more the charge weights are reduced, the dirtier and more incomplete the burn is with 2400. You also have a tendency to have round to round velocity swings because of this. 2400 has a nasty habit of leaving behind these small, hard unburned kernels which get into and under everything on your gun. This property of 2400 is one reason why I prefer H110/W296 to 2400. There are a number of different propellants which are much better for constructing reduced loads including HP38/W231 and Unique. 2400 is definitely not on that list.

Many folks cite 2400's ability to be used in reduced loads. While doing so may and will produce ammunition which does go bang, I'm definitely from the "use the correct propellant for the particular application" school of thought.



Bruce

[BLUEDOT37]

I've used 17.0/17.5grs of 2400 with 240/250gr cast LSWC since 1968. I can't tell you how many thousands that is. I've NEVER had a problem with this load or any residue it left. Is it the cleanest, no. Is it the most efficient, no. But it is a flexible powder & has been a very accurate load in every 44 Mag I've shot it in over the years. It is my favorite & as long as I can find 2400 it'll be my first choice for moderate cast lead loads, or I'll use coated, plated or jacketed bullets instead with whatever powder I have available.

I don't get people complaining about Alliant flake powders in moderate loads all the time. A few unburnt kernels don't bother me, I clean my guns anyway. Some ball powders are no better.

But... my main reason for mentioning it, in that context, is if a gun has a tendancy to lead, using faster powders only makes it worse. 2400 in moderate loads has always done better in such situations, for me, than say Unique.

.

[27 Man]

Another Okie chiming in here-- I started loading for my revolvers in the early seventies. For years I only used 2400 in my full power .44 and .357 magnum loads. Unique was used for mid-range and most .38 Special loads. For light plinking and PPC loads I relied on Bullseye. I have added other powders over the years, but those three will perform most tasks very well.

[shovelwrench]

Regular large pistol primers are fine with 240gr and H110....

At one time I had read an article about the .44 and H110. It addressed using Magnum or Regular primers and their affect on accuracy.

And basically talked about a loss of accuracy and negligible gains in velocity with Magnum primers.

A good friend and shooting buddy of mine had been using regular primers for years with 240gr and H110 so we tried Magnum primers......

THERE IT WAS, went from a one hole group at 100yds, to a 3" group.

[BruceM]

Regular large pistol primers are fine with 240gr and H110....

Yah, just what do those propellant manufacturers and lab technicians who develop data for major reloading manuals know anyway?

Bruce

[shovelwrench]

Actually its much more common then you think and was promoted by none other than Skeeter himself.

If you haven't tested it I guess that's why you have no real input to the contrary.

If you'd do a simple google search and take the time to read some, you'd realize just how many people are loading that combo with great results.

But hey, I'm sure lots of great things have come from doing nothing but listening to lab technicians telling people there is no other way.

[BruceM]

you'd realize just how many people are loading that combo with great results.

Lots of people are having "great results" shooting .40 S&W ammo out of 10mm autoloaders. Another big no no.

I been told to always use a magnum primer with H-110 or there will be a lot of unburned powder. A friend of mine loaded some H-110 with just LP primers and the loads sounded like a squib load and he had a huge mess of "this yellow-ish mass" (as he called it) to clean out of the cylinder and barrel.

The above was posted by Lefty SRH on the Ruger Forum. He is not the Lone Ranger with regard to this experience. My gut tells me that threads in both schools of thought can be found on the internet. It proves nothing. I think that neck tension and crimp have the major impact on SD, ES and velocity swings with H110/W296 and not magnum primers. Possibly some standard primers are hot enough to do the job and some are not. At an additional cost of 1/4 to 1/2 penny per shot, why even fool around with standard primers?

I've used 17.0/17.5grs of 2400 with 240/250gr cast LSWC since 1968.

Similar velocities and, in most guns, accuracy can be obtained with 10.5 to 11.0 grains of Unique and other propellants. The charges of 2400 needed in order to obtain similar ballistics to Unique is 59% higher than Unique. It is also at least 1 grain below minimum for 2400 in at least one manual I checked Enough said.

Bruce