What to do?

I have a Model 64-5 with heavy barrel that I am having a real problem with as far as accuracy goes.

At 21 feet with my PPC load of 3.2 grains of W-W 231 or HP38, behind a 148 grain HBWC, I get a nice group and it appears to shoot close to point of aim. Several of my 158 grain SWC handloads seem to do okay also at 21 feet.

Now, when I go to 25 yards, the group resembles a shotgun pattern, and this is with me shooting off of sandbags, and using my PPC and SWC loads.

I have tried W-W 231 behind 158 grain SWC, using 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, 4.4, and 4.5 grains, but to no avail as to grouping. I have also tried using Titegroup (3.8 grains) and again no grouping. I have made up some Titegroup loads using 3.4 & 3.6 grains to see how they do also.

The forcing cone was quite rough and under minimum when checked with a gauge, so I re-cut the cone with the 11 degree cutter and got it nice & smooth and within specs. I also checked the cylinder and the chambers are at .357. I then checked the barrel and when using a plug gauge, I notice no tightness or looseness when running the gauge through the bore, and all chambers line up perfectly with the cylinder locked into position after cocking the hammer. Muzzle looks good with no roughness or deformity.

I realize the 64 is not a target gun, but even at 25 yards from a rest, I should get a good grouping with a good handload.

My next test will be trying the same loads and distances with my Model 10-6 and my Model 14, to see how they fare.

Anyone have some suggestions? I was even thinking of getting another Model 64 barrel, if I can find one, but I'm going to wait until I see how the Model 10 & 14 do with my loads.

You might look at de-leading the barrel and I mean really getting rid of all the lead. Even though it looks good, a re-crowning job might help. You might slug the barrel to make sure that your bullets are close in size. Changing to Bullseye powder might help.

Lewis Lead Remover is my friend. Barrel crown is good. My cast bullets are sized to .358", and with the plug gauge, it is a tight fit, but not tight enough to slide down the bore. I have always used W-W 231 for my .38 Spl. target loads, even when I did the loading for the gun shops I worked at, and never had a problem.

I assume the timing is good? I don't think it's 231 powder as I have used a lot of it. You might try weighting your bullets to make sure there are no voids from casting. You could try some factory ammo and see if that groups. Dang it I have run out of ideas maybe some one will come up with a solution. Don

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"Don't worry be happy"

Did you slug your barrel? It could be a thread choke issue.

Lewis Lead Remover is good but to really clean the bore out I mix up a 50/50 solution of hydrogen peroxide and white vinegar. Plug one end of the barrel, pour in and watch the lead foam out the color of gray ink. Do this as many times as necessary to get the barrel "lead free."

Have you tried any jacked bullets to see how they do?

Plug gauge would have caught that.

Thanks for the suggestions, I will try them.

I doubt its the Win 231 as my loads in my .38 M & P will cloverleaf. I also suggest weighing the bullets before loading them in the cases, I have bought some before and have had them weigh in the same box as much as 4-5 grains apart. At 25 yards that can make a big difference. When I clean the lead out of my barrel, I take a copper scouring pad and peel off a small piece or two and wrap that around a cleaning brush (I use a .40 cal brush for my .357 and .38's because it has a bit more resistance) and you would be amazed at the lead that alone picks up. I run the brush through pretty vigorously and that does the trick. Since it sounds like you have the diameter figured out, I think it might be leading. If you can either try some jacketed bullets or maybe a lead bullet with a gascheck to help get the lead out.

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Vaya con Dios

Since you have 2 other .38's I'd try those loads in them. If they shoot well in those guns it's obviously the Model 64 that has the problem. If problem lies with the revolver I'd get rid of it and start over with another Model 64. J&G Sales has plenty of used ones for sale.

Yes, I've been thinking real hard about getting another one.

Gag. I can hardly focus on a 25 yard target and line up the sights. For me at 25 yards a shotgun blasted target would be pretty good. The only other thing I can think of is maybe change bullet lube. If you're using a wax type lube then maybe try alox. It works great at that level of pressure.

Please don't take this the wrong way but from what you wrote it sounds like the shooter, not the gun.

Shooting 25 yards is an art with a revolver and can be done well with practice but it's not the easiest thing to do. If you are very accurate @7 yards I doubt it's the ammo.

My 2 favorite loads are a 148gr DEWC under 3.4gr W231 and a 158gr LSWC under 4.0gr W231. Those loads are accurate for me out to 25 yards and more but that's after A LOT of shooting.

Please try those loads in your M10 & M14 and let us know how they shoot.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

You and me both!

To me center mass at that distance is a real accomplishment.

I discounted the shooter as being a problem when he said that he shoots PPC. That should mean he is reasonably comfortable with shooting out to 50 yds.

Plus, focus should be on the front sight and let that 25 yard target be a blur. It is physically impossible to focus on both the sight and target so keep it on the front sight. You just hold for what YOU perceive to be the middle of the blurry thing you hope is your target .

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Non illegitimae carborundum

If you are using hollow base wad cutters, 3.2 gr WW 231 maybe just too warm. Try 2.8 to 3.0 grains WW 231 and see your group size. I used a starting load for HBWC, fired six rounds and had 9 holes in the target. Backed off 0.3 grains and got clover leafs -- big hole with 4 to 6 petals. Initial load was tearing skirts off HBWC.

You 3.2 grain load maybe distoring the skirts. Reduced powder charge is cheaper than a new gun, and you can buy a new gun anyway.

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S&WHF 366

I may back the charge down, but 3.2 grains of 231 was out standard PPC load for the two gunshops I worked & reloaded for, and there was never a problem or complaint.

I shot the loads in the Model 10 today, but did not take the 14. Instead, I took the 64 again, but this time I shot using my custom glasses that I had made, whereby the sights are clear and the target is slightly fuzzy at 25 & 50 yards.

The Model 10 did pretty good as did the 64 with my shooting glasses. I guess the BIG problem was me, as when I switched to my regular glasses the sights were not as clear as with the shooting glasses.

All shooting was at 25 yards today. And, I believe I found my load(s).
3.4 & 3.6 grains of Titegroup behind the 158 grain cast SWC gave me what I was looking for. Not ten or nine ring accuracy most of the time, but at least I was in or close to center of mass and I'm satisfied. Even my other loads I had been shooting were better, but not quite as good as the above mentioned loads.

From now on I will shoot with my shooting glasses.

Oh, I did order another Model 64 from J&G Sales today also, so I guess our son will get another handgun, after I decide which one I want to keep.

I presume that you have already tried some factory WC as a "control."

No I have not, but I know my load shoots, I have a Clark Custom PPC gun that he built for me in 2010, which I use at my clubs PPC matches.

Glad you found the problem. Clear front sight is the key. I just love those Aristocrat ribs on a model 10 with Pachmayr or Bill Davis grips. Nice gun.
Regards,
Guy -

Hi Guy:

Do you shoot PPC in Canada?

Sorry Bill, I just read your reply 6 months too late :-)

Yes I do shoot PPC in the Quebec province, at least 12 official matches a year. I shoot a model 10 and a 586 with Douglas barrels and Aristocrat ribs. For Distingued matches, I shoot a model 15. For 50 yards, I can't help you with your question about 231, as I use Titegroup. But I have friends using 231 with very good results. At that range, I would say practice, and to a lesser extent, bullet choice, and more important than powder choice.
BR,
Guy -

bgrafsr,

I just picked up a 64-3 for a base gun PPC conversion.

In case you read this OLD POST.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

No, 3.2gr W231 is not too hot a load for HBWC bullets. That is the load I use with HBWC bullets and I charge 3.4gr W231 with DEWC bullets. (even though this is an old thread lol) Hodgdon recommends a starting charge of 3.5gr W231 under a 148gr HBWC.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

If your groups are good like you say at 21 feet, and not so good at 25 yards try shooting a new group at 21 feet, but also have a target behind it at 25 yards. (In other words, one target directly behind the first to give you two holes with one shot) Focus as best you can with your mod 64. Once you get your normal tight group at 21 feet, examine what happened to the target at 25 yards. All you're looking for is the group results at 25 yards. Repeat this with your various loads shooting off a rest. Then try this with your model 10 & 14.

If the three guns all print your nice groups like you say at 21 feet, are your groups equally tight at 25 yard? If not, and your 64 is still giving you poor results, it is the 64 and not the loads. This would tell you a lot about your loads also. Try JB compound before you shoot the 64 in this test. Good luck.