Factory bullets and actual diameter?

[Stevie]

So I've been on a .44-40 long-gun kick...buying an older Rossi carbine(maybe 80's or 90's) and a even older Winchester sporting rifle(1909). Bought those two from the same guy last spring. Later last year I got a rough Winchester carbine in the same caliber(and from the very same fellow I got the other .44-40 guns from). All well and fine except .44-40 ammo is about as scarce as .22LR. I bought reloading dies as soon as I got the first two .44 guns.

Bullets and bore sizes....well..bore size first. I slug the Rossi M92 carbine and it's right there at .427...then the Winchester 1892 sporting rifle..it's bore slugs .430(a good solid shiny bore)...The old Winchester carbine has a rough bore..but does posses rifling and it slugs to .431

The bullets....The first bullets I bought were/are Hornady's 205gr 'Cowboy' bullets advertised at .427 right on the box. Hmmm..not so...those bullets measure approx. .423-.425 with the average of about .424 diameter. These a knurled soft lead bullet. A fellow with much experience shooting the ancient guns recommended me a load that 'kicks' these up and I've shot these Hornady bullets fine in my tighter bored Rossi.

So I decide the bigger-bored Winchesters need bigger bullets. I just received more factory bullets last week. I bought some Missouri Bullet Co. 'Cowboy #5' bullets advertised at .430 diameter...these hard-cast bullets they claim are optimized for .44-40/etc....I also bought some more Hornady knurled lead .430 diameter 180gr 'cowboy' bullets...then for the ancient rotten-bored Winchester carbine I bought some 200gr .429 diameter Nosler jacketed hollowpoints. All supposedly .429/.430 diameter bullets right?

No..they ain't .429/.430 diameter!! Like the earlier purchased Hornady 205gr cowboy bullets supposed to be .427 and are really .424 diameter. The Hornady 180gr 'cowboy bullets are scarcely bigger diameter than that..measuring .425/.426..not even close to .430 diameter.

The Missouri .430 cowboy #5 bullets are the closest to advertised diameter..these measuring right at .428 diameter.

The Nosler jacketed hollowpoints...also are small. Supposidly .429 diameter..I measured these at .427 diameter...I even walked down to my shop and retrieved my 0-1" micrometer and walked back(several hundred yards in the snow)..re-measured all the bullets just to make sure my calipers weren't out of whack....nope...these .44 caliber bullets measure the same.

I even measured some other bullets for .30 caliber and .45(rifle and pistol)...these bullets all measure-out pretty much like the box states...

So what's the deal with .44 caliber bullets?

Seems to me the manufacturers must be really conservative about bullet diameter..maybe because ain't no two .44 caliber bores the same size!

I do see some benefit to the small bullets....I think the Nosler bullets will likely work in my .427 bored Rossi...and I bet the 180gr Hornady 'cowboy' bullets may just work in my Italian M1889 10.4mm revolver!

[scooter123]

There is a somewhat local gunshop that has had a used but likely unfired Lord & Taylor 1892 Winchester Takedown clone in 44-40 for about 2 years. Their asking price on the rifle is only 600 dollars and it would qualify as a real bargain if not for the caliber, a brand new version of this rifle in 357 Magnum carries an asking price of 1250.00.

Due to the appearance of this rifle being a real bargain I looked into the 44-40 caliber and learned that the groove diameter for this particular caliber has historically ranged from a low of 0.423 inch to a high of 0.435 inch. When you take that extreme range of variation into account it's not too surprising to find that 44 caliber bullets have a similar range of diameters. It's also why that 1892 Takedown is still sitting in that gun shop, because I just don't want to have to start casting my own bullets.

IMO the reason why you are seeing such a mess of diameters in the 44 caliber is due to Winchester apparently not being capable of producing barrels with a consistent groove diameter in the 44 caliber between 1873 and somewhere around 1935 or so. It also probably explains why lever action rifles gained a reputation for somewhat poor accuracy over the years. Because with that wide of a range of groove diameters I'll bet there were some rifles that produced Minute of Barn Door accuracy at 100 yards. As for why Winchester couldn't get the manufacturing under control, most likely the 44-40 was a really popular caliber and Winchester wasn't willing to spend the money to replace worn out tools as long as the rifles were selling well.

[Warren Sear]

There is a lot of variation in bore and chamber dimensions for the 44-40 for several reasons. I cast, size, and lube my own bullets, so the way I approach this problem is is to disregard the bore dimensions, and size the bullets to the largest diameter that will chamber in all my guns, which for me is .429". No matter what anyone says, there will be no measurable increase in pressures by firing a lead bullet that is a few thousandths larger than bore diameter. Also, a bore will size a bullet as well as any sizer will.

There is no sense in having the advantage of interchangeable rifle and revolver cartridges, and then giving up that advantage by loading specific ammo for each gun of that caliber.

It works for me.

[Horn]

Originally Posted by Stevie

So I've been on a .44-40 long-gun kick...buying an older Rossi carbine(maybe 80's or 90's) and a even older Winchester sporting rifle(1909). Bought those two from the same guy last spring. Later last year I got a rough Winchester carbine in the same caliber(and from the very same fellow I got the other .44-40 guns from). All well and fine except .44-40 ammo is about as scarce as .22LR. I bought reloading dies as soon as I got the first two .44 guns.

Bullets and bore sizes....well..bore size first. I slug the Rossi M92 carbine and it's right there at .427...then the Winchester 1892 sporting rifle..it's bore slugs .430(a good solid shiny bore)...The old Winchester carbine has a rough bore..but does posses rifling and it slugs to .431

The bullets....The first bullets I bought were/are Hornady's 205gr 'Cowboy' bullets advertised at .427 right on the box. Hmmm..not so...those bullets measure approx. .423-.425 with the average of about .424 diameter. These a knurled soft lead bullet. A fellow with much experience shooting the ancient guns recommended me a load that 'kicks' these up and I've shot these Hornady bullets fine in my tighter bored Rossi.

So I decide the bigger-bored Winchesters need bigger bullets. I just received more factory bullets last week. I bought some Missouri Bullet Co. 'Cowboy #5' bullets advertised at .430 diameter...these hard-cast bullets they claim are optimized for .44-40/etc....I also bought some more Hornady knurled lead .430 diameter 180gr 'cowboy' bullets...then for the ancient rotten-bored Winchester carbine I bought some 200gr .429 diameter Nosler jacketed hollowpoints. All supposedly .429/.430 diameter bullets right?

No..they ain't .429/.430 diameter!! Like the earlier purchased Hornady 205gr cowboy bullets supposed to be .427 and are really .424 diameter. The Hornady 180gr 'cowboy bullets are scarcely bigger diameter than that..measuring .425/.426..not even close to .430 diameter.

The Missouri .430 cowboy #5 bullets are the closest to advertised diameter..these measuring right at .428 diameter.

The Nosler jacketed hollowpoints...also are small. Supposidly .429 diameter..I measured these at .427 diameter...I even walked down to my shop and retrieved my 0-1" micrometer and walked back(several hundred yards in the snow)..re-measured all the bullets just to make sure my calipers weren't out of whack....nope...these .44 caliber bullets measure the same.

I even measured some other bullets for .30 caliber and .45(rifle and pistol)...these bullets all measure-out pretty much like the box states...

So what's the deal with .44 caliber bullets?

Seems to me the manufacturers must be really conservative about bullet diameter..maybe because ain't no two .44 caliber bores the same size!

I do see some benefit to the small bullets....I think the Nosler bullets will likely work in my .427 bored Rossi...and I bet the 180gr Hornady 'cowboy' bullets may just work in my Italian M1889 10.4mm revolver!

Back in the 1800s handgun (and likely long guns) manufacturers made ammo in their brands__Think S&W here and Colt. A western town may have only one gun store/ General Store. Colt continued making hand guns (in 38 special caliber here) but quit making the ammo. S&W continued selling S&W ammo with their handguns.
I often noticed three or four tumbles when firing wad cutters on our police range. (38 special days) I read where Colt's original bores ( late 1800s and very early 1900s) were actually a wee bit smaller than S&W 38 special bores. But__after market manufacturers followed the S&W sizing of bullets.
We bought our own revolvers. I purchased a Colt 357 Trooper. The tumbles on the range ceased.
I suspect in some older but still fine serviceable long guns this same thing could exist? Thus, maybe you've actually discovered some of this.
Good luck and love some of those old firearms!

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
-- George Orwell

"Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

[Ivan the Butcher]

I have friends that collect "Old West" firearms. If you plan on shooting all of the you NEED to have only one ammo that is safe in all of them. I have all modern 44-40 and loaded all my ammo with .427 200-205 grain cast lead over 4.7 grain of Hodgdon Clays (don't confuse with Universal or International). I ended up using a Lee Factory Crimp Die, then used the tightest cylinder as a check die and put every round in the loose cylinder (6 at a time) and dumping all the good ammo into an ammo can the few that failed were inspected crimped again, if they failed a second time they were packaged in red and used in one of the rifles for practice. On a match I never took ammo that didn't work in all my guns. Ivan

[Stevie]

I guess I'm just used to buying X brand bullets of .xyz" diameter..casually picking up my caliper and discovering that the X brand bullets actually do measure .xyz" diameter!

As far as the Nosler hollowpoints measuring .427(rated as .429 on box label)...I had actually been shopping for some .44-40 Winchester or Remington 200gr jacketed softpoints too..which are advertised at .426"...but couldn't find anybody that wasn't sold-out. However I did seriously want some .430" and .429" bullets jacketed and lead to play with in the bigger-bored Winchesters...

[Stevie]

Originally Posted by Ivan the Butcher

I have friends that collect "Old West" firearms. If you plan on shooting all of the you NEED to have only one ammo that is safe in all of them. I have all modern 44-40 and loaded all my ammo with .427 200-205 grain cast lead over 4.7 grain of Hodgdon Clays (don't confuse with Universal or International). I ended up using a Lee Factory Crimp Die, then used the tightest cylinder as a check die and put every round in the loose cylinder (6 at a time) and dumping all the good ammo into an ammo can the few that failed were inspected crimped again, if they failed a second time they were packaged in red and used in one of the rifles for practice. On a match I never took ammo that didn't work in all my guns. Ivan

This a good and sensible idea...and pretty much my goal too. The bigger fly in my .44-40 ointment is the rougher-bored Winchester...it don't like lead bullets(that I've tried). I was thinking a .429" jacketed bullet may be something to try..and the Noslers looked to be a good choice..and they may still be great shooters from that gun as I have not loaded any yet.

The lesser fly in my .44-40 ointment is the bore variance. I was sort-of shocked the Rossi carbine's bore slugged a perfect .427"! Not so shocked the Winchester sporting rifle slugged .430"....however I was rather grateful the old nasty-bored carbine slugged-out at .431" with a good engraving of the rifling....I expected worse...

I can say that both Rossi carbine and Winchester sporting rifle shoot PCI .44-40 200gr cowboy ammo great(this stuff has a bullet that looks similar/identical to the Missouri 'Cowboy #5' bullets I bought. I would bet that if you retrieved a measurable bullet from the loaded PCI ammo it would measure about .428 or .429"...but that's just a guess as I've just shot those up to get the Starline brass!