Hi all,
I'm the newest owner of a vintage m58 revolver the I am loading with 240gr Keith @ 15BHN over 17.4gr of 2400 being touched off with winchester primers (close to some modern r-load data's max of 18.5-19.5).

When out in the desert (90F+), i was impressed with the wonderful muzzle flash, boom, and recoil that this gave so I packed it up and took it with me to entertain my cousins over the thanksgiving holiday in virginia (30F+). There I was not so impressed. The flash was no longer there and roiling smoke belched from the gun, more-so than I had previously observed. Additionally, kick had been reduced greatly and now felt like a +P 45acp in a 1911. Bringing the round back to arizona, I today took them to a range for fun (75F+) and was rewarded with big flashes, recoil, and a sore hand.

Any advice / comments? Was it the cold? Is there a good substitute for said powder?

PS: Other powders I have are vv3n37, RL7, lilgun, trailboss, and some rifle powders (h4198, h4350, imr4895).

Yes it was the cold. Some powders are temperature sensitive and lose some power at cold temps but perk up in warm/hot temps. You might try AA9 or H110/Win296. They will require mag primers and I'm not sure of their temp sensitivity. I assume you are looking for mag type loads.

2400 does not have a reputation for being cold weather sensitive. I live in Minnesota and have used 2400 for many years with no problems. 30 degrees F is not cold enough to have any effect on ammo (or gun) performance, in my experience.

I think the problem lies somewhere other than your choice of powder. Have you tried other primers? Are you sure someone has not "tuned" the mainspring or swapped it out with an aftermarket product? Have you checked the gun for excess "endshake" (which could put the case head and primer further from the firing pin, lessening its strike)?

I have never heard of 2400 being temp sensitive but anything is possible.

If you're looking for something with a big flash/boom in the cold weather give W296/H110 set off with a magnum primers and you will get what you're looking for!

__________________
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SWCA #3437

Try the Lil Gun. It will give you nearly the same performance as H-110/296, but with less pressure, and it doesn't have to be loaded to 97+% of maximum to be safe. I generally run my Lil Gun loads a grain or two below maximum, and get excellent brass life, but plenty of buck and roar.

Different condition may have given you different sensory impression of the rounds. Colder weather numbs the hands and you usually are not out there in a t-shirt so heavier clothing will muffle noise and perhaps reduce that recoil "feel" esp. if wearing gloves. Colder temperatures also thickens the air and reduces the speed of sound and a bullets velocity somewhat regardless of the powder used. Smoke generated mostly from the bullet lube when using lead bullets will expand slower and hang in the air when the weather is cold, take a look at the smoke from a fire place or camp fire in cold weather vrs hot.

It would be silly to go about switching powders and loads looking for a cold weather load unless you where speinding a lot of time in a cold climate and unless you do imperical tests with a chronograph on all your loads in cold and hot weather you really have no idea if there's any real difference between the load or any advantage with different powders.

As you specified out the original post, the only thing changed was the temp, but I am inclined to agree that something else is going on. +30F isn't really all that cold. But, it just might have been cold enough to induce you to wear gloves. Was that a factor?
Also, perceived flash is dependent on ambient lighting. Minimal flash during bright daylight could be seen as much more as it gets darker or just overcast skies.
Final thought: Did you cook up more ammo in Virginia, or were all cartridges loaded on the same bench/same day/same press?

All loads cooked up same day. I made about 75 all at once as one of my scoops put out 17.4 grains exactly when tapped and carded off. All were with those win primers that were for mag and non-mag applications.

I wasn't wearing gloves in VA. Initial firings in AZ were in bright daylight in open desert. VA was in bright daylight on a pasture; gloves were not worn on right hand (firing hand). Yesterday's firing was in an indoor range (caswells).

Thanks for all the suggestions, any vit powder rec's? I don't know if those powders are any better than regular powders but some think so (tried the coolaid?).

James

I've been shooting 2400 in various calibers, including the .41 Magnum, for 35 years in temperatures from below zero to over 100 degrees F. I have no recollection of reduced power in cold temperatures (either by signature - flame - or ballistic performance). In fact, I find it more stable and consistent than most other suitable powders for straight wall magnum handgun cartridges.

I use Federal standard primers, if that helps, but have also had pretty deep experience with CCI as well. No troubles from either.

I would stay with the 2400!I have burned many pounds of 2400 in cold and hot weather with no problem at all.Before you start changing powders you should determine if you really have a problem (chrono') and if so find out what the problem is (primer,crimp,bullet pull etc).2400 is the last powder I would blame for a problem in hand loads.

As noted above, 2400 doesn't have a reputation for being temperature sensitive. If you have any of the loads left from that original batch, I'd suggest pulling a few bullets and making certain that you have full powder charges in each one. Another area to look at is bullet crimp, 2400 demands at least a medium-heavy crimp for complete ignition, especially with cast bullets, which offer less resistance as they go down the bore than jacketed bullets do. I suspect you probably experienced a "perfect storm" of issues that led to the issue of incomplete ignition at lower temps. These issues probably wouldn't manifest themselves so dramatically at 90+ degrees. Just a suggestion of things that may have happened. One last question: did you try shooting any remaining ammunition at warmer temps when you got home? I'm pretty confident Arizona is still above 30 degrees at this time of year.

358156hp, I'm with you on this one and suspect that the cartridge wasn't crimped very well...as the powder choices go to the slower burn rates you need a very tight crimp to allow complete ignition to occur!

You mentioned that your load is below the recommended starting load (17.4 vs 18.5). This in itself can cause variations, and with a little cold added, can produce the "problems" you mentioned. Go up to the min/start load and see if things get better.

I've been using 2400 since '86 when I started reloading .44 Magnum (also works well in my 357 and cast loads in .223).

While 2400 does not have a reputation for being cold sensitive as stated, it does for hot sensitive. So do many double-base spherical powders.

I found this out on a hot day in the desert with my standard .44 Magnum load. Had been shooting it for years, with nary a problem.

Then I left a Model 29 and box of my handloads on the tailgate in the sun while shooting some other guns. You may rest assured that things got warmer in all respects after I touched off a few of these heated up cartridges in a heated up gun -- felt recoil and pressure noticeably increased, cases were difficult to extract. Don't know about flash as it was far too sunny, but I reckon it was spitting dragon breath outta the muzzle.

I'd never even heard of nor experienced the phenomenon until that day, went looking for info and discovered this is relatively common. Matter of fact, on a show I recently saw about the the sniper who made that longest-ever shot noted that he placed his cartridges in the sun for a bit to achieve some increased velocity. Do some Googling on it.

The same bullets were retried in a range in AZ after returning from VA; 17.4 grains is just under max charge; and I always heavily crimp. I think "perfect storm" seems to fit. Perhaps my cold hands didn't perceive the recoil properly? And maybe the powder wasn't quite as potent as it was in warm weather?

Thanks for all the advice guys. I'll stick with 2400 (since i've got two pounds) and may try magnum primers with downloaded charge (15.0-16.0 ish grs) to ensure standardized cold weather / hot weather performance.

PS- for those reading: 18grs of modern alliant 2400 is a good max for 230-240gr lead bullets in the 41mag. (Older recipes will state 20-22gr but then Elmer did love blowing up his pistols. Stay safe.)

Looking for a .41 mag load with 215 gr Oregon Trail cast bullets, just a target plinking round. I've had good luck in the 57's with 16.2 to 17.0 gr, under 210 gr Rem JSP. Can you go below the 16.2 ? In my 4" Model 57 the 17.0 load ran around 1100 fps, altho my chrony is suspect a times.
My usual powder is AA #5, but I have some 2400 to burn.
Thanks,
Steve