CAST LEAD BULLETS - TOO HARD???

[chief38]

I have always used "hard cast" lead bullets for my reloading and they have always had a BHN of 16 - 18. I came across a bullet manufacturer in PA that makes and sells super hard cast bullets with a BHN of 21 - 22. I was reading articles and posts about BHN's and I am now a bit concerned that a cast lead bullet that hard (relatively speaking of course) might actually cause more leading than soft bullets due to the fact that the lead is hard enough to not let it expand and seal the barrel properly causing gases to blow by the bullet and actually melt the lead into the grooves.

I load target grade and target velocity ammo (not SD ammo - for that I use BB) and my velocities are usually very conservative. For instance, my .38 special 158 grain RNL bullets from a 4" bbl are about 750 - 775 ft/sec. My .45acp 230 grain RNL out of a 5 1/2" bb; 1911 are around 725 - 750, and my .45 Colt 250 grain RNFP lead out of my 4 3/4" Colt SAA is about 720 - 750. Again, these loads are for target shooting, Cowboy Action Shooting and plinking.

I was thinking of buying some of the bullets in question here because one of my shooting friends regularly drives up to their Factory and it would be both convenient and cost effective for me as there would be no freight at all. However I am very concerned that these bullets might actually be too hard for the relatively low velocities I load to and actually CAUSE leading due to gas blow by.

My question here is does anybody here have actual experience with 21-22 BHN bullets in low to medium velocity loadings and how do they perform. What is the story regarding leading & accuracy?

I know I can just try some and see, but I figured I'd ask first. If there is any question left in my mind I can always just order bullets from my standard source and pay the UPS man so what experiences have you had?

Chief38

[Nframecollector]

I use pure linotype (BHN of 21-22) in all my pistol and milsurp weapons reloading with no barrel leading whatsoever. I do change the alloy for BPCR shooting and I use pure lead in muzzleloaders and cap n' ball revolvers. I'd give em' a whirl. Where in PA are these bullets from? I used to live in NE PA.

[Biggfoot44]

Well you certainly don't Need super hard bullets for your loads. Probably don't Need as hard as you presently load now.

But do super hard bullets gaurenty leading ? Maybe , maybe not. If the sizing is just right for your throats and bbl , it can alievate issues with alloy. Or not.

( See the phrase "Try them and see for yourself")

[Moonman]

There are probably numerous commercial casters that use 92-6-2 Alloy for that Brinell Hardness.(21/22)

[Bohica793]

If you are using the proper size boolit for your particular weapon (have you slugged?), then the hardness has very little to do with leading. I personally don't shoot anything harder that 10-12BHN at velocities up to 1400fps with no leading as I make sure my boolits are always at least .001-.002 larger than the bore diameter.

[Bart45]

The LASC website has an excellent article on the hardness of alloy and leading. I would avoid any bullet marketed as "hard cast". A 22lr travels at about 1200fps and is almost pure lead, without any leading issues. I quit buying the "hard cast" and started casting my own as close to pure lead as I can get with no issues.

[AveragEd]

If you visit Missouri Bullets' website, you can read a short tutorial on bullet hardness and why you can, as you intimated, have "too much of a good thing."

Chief, is this bullet manufacturer Precision Cast in Lebanon, Pennsylvania? If so, I have bought a lot of their different bullets locally and almost always have found the equivalent Missouri bullets to be at least as accurate or even a little more accurate as well as less expensive, even with shipping figured in.

Ed

[Robert Palermo]

Originally Posted by Moonman

There are probably numerous commercial casters that use 92-6-2 Alloy for that Brinell Hardness.(21/22)

Actually the classic 92/6/2 alloy will measure in the 16-18 range depending on what foundry produced it and how close they came to the original Taracorp Magnum Alloy as most foundries have variations in the percentages that come close but almost never equal the original formula spec.

BHN numbers are misleading and very limited in what they can tell you about a particular lead alloy.

I have more information on my website that explains BHN numbers, Alloy Strength and why you don't need obturation to make cast bullets work along with better information about cast bullets in general under the reloading tips section. Welcome To Penn Bullets INC.

[Harrison]

Go over to the cast boolits forum, to ask these questions. The real experts on all things lead boolits and casting are there. They can give you reasoned answers to your question.

[chief38]

This is the caster I am talking about.

King Shooters Supply

For 30+ years I've just used the "generic" 16-18 BHN bullets with no issues.

* for 38 special I use .357" dia. bullets
* for 45.acp & Colt I use .452" dia. bullets

Never had any leading issues and nothing wrong with the bullets that I purchase from Bullets Direct, Penn, or Missouri, just would be very convenient for me to have my friend bring back what I need as he goes there monthly.

[Vulcan Bob]

Back in the day when lead bullets were the norm a hard cast bullet was 12-14 BHN. The solution to a non leading bullet is size and the proper lube. As far as size is concerned with a revolver you size to fit the cylinder throat, not the bore. In most all cases the cylinder throat size is larger than the bore size. I think that the bullet lube is the key, when I got back into casting my own last year I did a lot of research into bullet lubes for handguns and came to the conclusion (my own) that a very soft lube was the way to go. As a result I chose SPG lube for my bullets cast with straight wheel weight alloy, wheel weight alloy has a BHN of 9-12. I get zero to very little leading with these bullets up to near 1,400 fps. In pistols I size em one to two thousand over bore diameter with good results as in my 9mm loads I size em to .358" with good accuracy in four different pistols and no leading at 1,111 fps (four inch M-39). Commercial bullet casters have the problem of ease of casting and then shipping. As a result of these concerns they have to use a hard lube that will stay in the grease grooves and not be a gooey mess when the customer gets them. Well that is my two cents worth on this and results do vary!

[LoboGunLeather]

Leading can result from a number of factors, or combinations of factors. Alloy hardness is certainly one factor, primarily limiting the velocity potential of a cast bullet. Other factors include:

1. Bullet design (shape, fit to the lands and grooves of the barrel)
2. Lubricant (type, quantity)
3. Barrel (type of rifling, consistency of dimensions, overall condition)
4. Powder type and charge (propellant powders differ considerably in burning rate, pressures generated, flame temperatures, etc)
5. Bullet sizing (all sizing damages cast bullets to some degree, and lead alloys actually are softened somewhat by the sizing process, leaving softer metal at the bullet's bearing surface).

Even the strongest lead alloys can suffer from melting of the bullet base due to flame temperatures, with the driving force (pressure generated by the propellant within the chamber and bore) causing the molten lead to smear over the surfaces in passing.

Bullet lubricants differ widely, and some are better than others for certain applications. Longer barrels require greater attention to lubricants because of the greater distances involved.

Powder selection can make major differences. Generally speaking, for cast lead bullets the powders with moderate burning rates will provide more uniform performance and satisfactory results. The faster burning powders generally achieve peak pressures very quickly, resulting in deformation of cast lead bullets (while this is desirable to some extent in many cast bullet applications, excessive deformation can affect accuracy and expose the bore to unlubricated portions of the bullet).

Lead alloys have been used for many purposes and quite a lot of research and testing have been done to determine how various alloys perform in cast bullets. One of the best resources (if you can find it) is the NRA book "Cast Bullets" by Col. E.H. Harrison, a compilation of many years of experimentation in rifles and handguns. Some of the older Lyman manuals (1970's and 1980's vintage) are also very good.

Over the past 4 decades I have used hundreds and hundreds of pounds of wheelweights for cast handgun bullets loaded up to around 1000 FPS in several different calibers of handguns, and this has always worked quite well. For magnum handgun loads I alloy wheelweights (BHN 11-12) in a 50-50 mix with linotype metal (BHN 22-24) for loads up to around 1400 FPS. I also load several centerfire rifle calibers with gas-check cast bullets in straight linotype metal for velocities up to around 2200-2300FPS with good results. In all handgun loads I stick with the NRA-Alox bullet lubricant. In high powered rifle loads I use straight white lithium grease (an outstanding industrial lubricant that stands up to the pressures and temperatures of this use very well).

At one time or another I have loaded cast bullets in rifle calibers including .30-30, .32 Spl, .30-40 Krag, .308 Win, .30-06, .30 Carbine, .38-55, .44-40, .45-70, .45-90, .45 Sharps Express, .375 H&H, and .458 Win Mag. I have taken all kinds of game with these, from cottontails and grouse to bull elk.

About the only time I ever think about leading is when I find myself shooting factory ammo with lead bullets (.38 Spl wadcutters are especially bad for leading, and .44 Spl and .45 Colt factory lead bullet loads can be real leading experiences as well). These are typically swaged bullets, not cast, made of dead soft lead with minimal lubrication (frequently little more than a wax & graphite coating).

Nothing wrong with good hard cast bullets, and the harder bullets are usually easier to achieve satisfactory results with. The more difficult things to work out are proper fit to the individual weapon's throat & bore, lubrication needs, and an appropriate charge of an appropriate powder.

Buy the harder bullets and have fun working up loads that function to your needs in your firearms. Like many people I started out reloading due to economic reasons; but over the years I found reloading to be a very interesting pastime in its own right, and cast bullets can add another dimension to the overall experience.

[mark44spec]

If you size your bullets to something over throat diameter you will create a seal that prevents gas from rushing around the bullet. How hard or soft dosen't really effect this. Poor lube may cause leading, usually near the muzzle. Overly hard bullets are more brittle than soft, which isn't good for hunting. For loads like you are shooting I would measure my throats with a small hole gage and a micrometer, not dial calipers. Then choose a size about .001 over that, and test for a good seal with no leading. With my guns at least, this is key and works with hard and soft bullets. YMMV

[tlay]

With hardcast bullets I try to use a good softer lube, run them around 1000fps, and use a gas check. I know that normally you should not use a gas check unless you are going a lot faster but with very hard bullets I have had good luck with no or little leading.

[venomballistics]

hard cast and extra hard cast are still softer than copper.
incorrect sizing will give more fits than any hardness achievable with lead alloys

[rwsmith]

The Missouri bullet site does have some explanations for why they choose certain BH. The uniformed like myself can learn there.

I use Penn bullets too and I presume they are in Pennsylvania. They have good info for applications of each bullet but not as much general casting knowledge as Missouri.

As mentioned above I think that the main problem with uberhard bullets are the terminal ballistics (shattering).

Update: BTW The Missouri Bullet site has an equation that determines BH according to CUP pressure. Kind of neat.

[mtgianni]

A rule of thumb that is not set in stone but works is 1473 fps per bhn#. Bhn 10 should be good to 1473 fps. Again fit is more important but I shoot rifle loads @ 2400 fps with bhn 12 and no leading, reasonable accuracy.

[Robert Palermo]

I use Penn bullets too and I presume they are in Pennsylvania. They have good info for applications of each bullet but not as much general casting knowledge as Missouri.


???????? What is missing?

[mkk41]

For those who don't know , Robert Palermo IS Mr. Penn Bullets.

And his hard cast bullets are excellent.

[Moonman]

Penn Bullets also has some SOFTER ALLOYS & Some OPTIONAL SIZING.

BULLET SIZE IS THE KEY TO YOUR FIREARMS EXPERIENCE WITH LEAD BULLETS.


The Bullets NEED TO FIT YOUR REVOLVER CHAMBERS TOO!

Having Pin Gauges to measure with is a big asset to revolver folks.

Mr Penn Bullets, AKA Robert Palermo, also HAS HIS OWN FOUNDRY

to enable him to control his alloys.

Penn Bullets has been casting and selling for DECADES to discriminating shooters.

THEY ARE NOT IN THE FAST FOOD BUSINESS, orders take time depending upon the specific caliber demands.

He makes some really fine bullets, well worth they wait if has to be.

I'm thinking of trying some of his 100 grain double ended wadcutters

in my Snubbies, for the ladies to shoot in my classes.

I've loaded and shot THOUSANDS of Penn Bullets, GOOD STUFF PERIOD.

Robert Palermo is also Good People, I've met the man.
.

[jtcarm]

I dunno why you're not getting leading in the .38 special now, unless your revolver has super-tight dimensions or the bullets are larger than the nominal .358 diameter.

I bought a box of commercial cast .38 WCs about 20 years ago and still have probably 475 you're welcome to if you're in the Ft. Worth area.

I'd go with swaged bullets from Speer or Hornady for light loads.

I don't shoot those infernal shell-shuckers, but assume bullets have to be harder just to feed.

I'm sure this will draw any number of acrimonious replies, but I also have about the same amount left of a box of Penn 200 grain .44
TCs, also bought in the 90s. 4.5 grains of BE left a lot of lead just ahead of my M-24s forcing cone.
My home-cast LBT 230 OWC from straight WW alloy sized to .431 have no problems with lighter loads.

LASRC has it right on when they state leading is caused by bullets that are too hard, not too soft.

[noylj]

If you cast your own and DON'T size the bullets, the hardness of the alloy is not important.
An alloy or 7-10 BHN is great for .38 Special and .45 Auto.
An alloy of 12-15 is more than hard enough for 9mm, .40S&W, and any thing else up to about 1500fps.
The only rule I know for lead bullets is the bullets must fit your barrel. Sometimes that means at least 0.001" over groove diameter and sometimes it means at least 0.002" over groove diameter.
Hard alloys lead because they don't seal the bore and gas cutting burns of lead. Soft bullets will "expand" to seal the bore, but if too soft for the velocity will lead along the forward edge of the rifling (they won't "grab" the rifling.
I find the so-called "soft" alloys of Missouri Bullets and mastercastbullets.com are just right for everything except super hot magnum loads where only a gas check will work any way. These are still harder than the hard alloys that were used by Keith for his casting for .44 Mag and other cartridges.

[noylj]

For revolvers, just for those who don't know, fit includes the throats of the cylinder as well as the barrel's groove diameter. Also, the forcing cone needs to be of the right geometry and fairly smooth.
The bullet should be a very snug fit in all the throats and at least 0.001" over the groove diameter.
Revolvers, which I very seldom shoot, are the only time I would even think about sizing a cast bullet.

[jtcarm]

Originally Posted by noylj

For revolvers, just for those who don't know, fit includes the throats of the cylinder as well as the barrel's groove diameter. Also, the forcing cone needs to be of the right geometry and fairly smooth.
The bullet should be a very snug fit in all the throats and at least 0.001" over the groove diameter.
Revolvers, which I very seldom shoot, are the only time I would even think about sizing a cast bullet.

Bingo! If the chamber throats are smaller than bore or forcing cone, they're not going to shoot cast bullets well and the throats have to be opened up.

Along with being too hard, every commercial cast boolit I ever tried was undersized. .38/.357 are normally sized .358. Well, unless you own a Freedom Arms, which are built to very tight tolerances, expect revolver chamber throats to be at least .001 over that. This means the bullet has to obdurate even more to seal the chamber throat and prevent gas from escaping around the bullet. Shoot a hard-cast .358 bullet from a .3595 chamber throat with light charge and you will normally get leading. The harder the bullet and the more undersized, the more pressure it needs to seal the throat.

Yes, there are exceptions, but that is the general consensus nowadays, and it agrees 100% with my experience.

[Inspector-Callahan]

Originally Posted by chief38

This is the caster I am talking about.

King Shooters Supply

I have shot thousands of Roger's Better Bullets with zero problems at various velocities in numerous calibers. Whatever his hardness is at seems to run well at a wide range of velocities, although I run most of my loads below 1,200fps. The thing I am most amazed by, is his QC. I still have yet to find a bad one. (and I keep telling them that) On top of that, Pat and Roger are both great people and do their absolute best to take care of their customers. I feel very fortunate that they are within driving distance.

I have also shot at least several thousand of Bob Palermo's Penn Bullets in 45ACP/9mm & 44Mag with zero issues.

IC

[Moonman]

I've just started shooting some Penn Bullets 9MM SWC's and they look to be a fine load for me.

[41steve]

22,s are coated in the waxy type lubricant or copper coated and don't lead or lead up the bore very little , Soft lead pistol bullets will lead like h@#$ ! , just look at the Original .357 magnum loadings in 1935 with that soft lead 158 SWC especially at the front of the chamber or forcing cone at the beginning of the rifleing , even with hard cast the faster u push them out the bore the more chance u have of leading most of the time it isin't that big of a deal unless u are using real soft lead bullets

[Moonman]

Understanding BULLET FIT, LUBE and BRINELL HARDNESS in relation to BULLET SPEED is MUCH MISUNDERSTOOD.

Folks need to read more about SHOOTING LEAD BULLETS.

[ozo]

Originally Posted by Moonman

Understanding BULLET FIT, LUBE and BRINELL HARDNESS in relation to BULLET SPEED is MUCH MISUNDERSTOOD.

Folks need to read more about SHOOTING LEAD BULLETS.

Very misunderstood !
There are a million+ lead bullet experts on forums that simply regurgitate what they read.....right or wrong.

There is also misleading info from commercial bullet casters when they explain the 'mixes' they use. Because of the economy, many are using cheap recycled metals.

I wonder what miracles Elmer Keith would produce today if he had just the lube technology we now have......

This is where I have to stand up tall for Robert Palermo. Bob has put his heart and soul into creating the finest lead bullets money can buy. Guess what, he also achieved that goal. He created /uses his own lube, he does not use recycled metals, and has his own foundry. He also is his hands on QC supervisor.
If you have a question for Penn Bullets, you get a quick answer from Bob, not a secretary or receptionist.

The absolute most accurate projectile I have used in .38special and .357magnum, rifle and handgun, by far, is Penn's 158gr TCBB sized to .3585
I have the others....Hornady, Missouri, Berry's, etc. and occasionally load them or shoot some old stock I loaded years ago. I can tell a big difference between them.

If you don't know Penn it's your loss. Try some, and if for some reason you don't like them, send 'em to me. I think you will also be surprised at his prices.......I know you will be at his quality. Oh, even lately, his shipping time has been fast.