Speer 135 grain "Short Barrel" for .357 Magnum

Please forgive me for this really long post. A lot of it is me thinking "out loud".

It may not have been a year ago since I ordered some of these bullets, but it seems like it. Now that I have enough to (a) experiment with, and (b) make use of for practice and carry purposes, I need to start the experiments.

An M&P 340 inspired me to buy these. My goal is to develop a load which delivers better velocity than .38 Special +P but NOT necessarily full-house .357 Magnum velocity. Buffalo Bore offers a 140 grain JHP with 1,088 from a 1-7/8ths" barrel.

The following is mostly my initial thoughts. There are a couple of questions toward the end, but laying out my thought process is helpful at least for me.

None of my 3 load manuals include data for a 135 grain JHP in .357 Magnum. All three show data for 125 grain and 140 grain JHP bullets.

Lyman & Hornady both show COAL of 1.590", but I will check with Speer directly.

I have Alliant 2400 available, and Alliant does post data specific to this bullet: 16 grains at 1,377 fps out of a 6" barrel (COAL of 1.590"). REGULAR primer, not magnum.

My Lyman manual shows a 140gr. JHP max 2400 load of 16.5 grains producing 1,343 fps out of a 4" barrel. Same COAL, probably longer bullet.

Sierra data for 140 gr. max is 17.4 grains going 1,300 fps out of a 6" barrel. Bullet must be substantially shorter given the much heavier load.

140 grain Hornady XTP min is 11.9gr going up to MAX of 15.5 grains at 1,350 fps out of an 8" barrel.

I'll throw out the Sierra data entirely since it seems to be an outlier compared to Hornady & Lyman.

BallisticsByTheInch shows a drop of 87 fps going from a 6" barrel down to a 4" barrel for a 140 gr. JHP. Going from a 6" barrel down to 2" for the same bullet loses 669 fps.

1,377 - 669 = 708 fps

NOT what I hope for. However, the BallisticsByTheInch "real world data" seems to indicate a significantly smaller loss of velocity.

First question: are Alliant's "recipes" (I hate that term) maximum loads?

Next: I also have AA #7 and Power Pistol available. PP seems like a sub-optimal choice given its reputation for flash & bang. AA #7 does show up in the Hornady and Sierra manuals. However, 2400 seems to be a staple for .357 Magnum loads.

Any reason not to start my experiments with the 2400? (note: I don't have magnum small pistol primers and don't intend to use them)

Last: now that you know I've done research and am working through this, does anyone else have experience handloading these 135 grain Speer bullets for a 1-7/8" revolver?

OK, I lied about it being the last question: Does 1,100 fps seem like an unreasonable goal out of this short barrel? Buffalo Bore gets there with a 140 grain bullet, but they are professionals with all kinds of powder choices, etc.

P.S. the "Search" function didn't help me here at all. I did try.

Speer manual #14 shows load data for the 135 gr short barrel bullet in a 357 Mag. A M 19 -2.5"

Long story short the highest velocities from a long barrel will also be the highest in a short barrel.

There is not much difference in FPS between AA #9, H110 and 2400 in the Speer manual. So if you have 2400 use that, it will be fine it is a tiny bit less that H110 but that is from there test. In you longer barrel it will probably be a little faster or as fast as it needs to be. I do not like posting load data but if you need it send me a PM.

The max velocity in their test and the short barrel was 1258 fps.

I have similar goals

I have similar goals. I 'shoot' for a heavy bullet going 1000 fps or better. The short barrel ballistics play havoc with this requirement. I have a 6" 686, so I have plenty of barrel. What I like for indoor emergency use is a 135-158 grain at 1000 fps or better, which is a .38++P or a beginning .357 magnum load. For carry I would use something stiffer.

Unfortunately, with the bullet shortages my experiments are restricted, but I feel confident this formula will work for me if needed. I would prefer Gold Dot bullets but for now I have 140 grain JHPs or soft 158 grain SWCs.

Unique or 2400 gets what I want.

The Speer GDHPSB is designed to work at snub-nosed velocities. Not much point in trying to push them outside of their design envelope. They won't necessarily work better going faster.

That said, you might want to take a look at this thread about replicating the BB FBI load:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/91534-duplicating-buffalo-bore-fbi-load.html

I wouldn't try to push those bullets to the velocities you're seeking, but that's just me. Stay safe, and use published data. If you are not an experienced hand loader I would say, "Don't do it!"

ETA Read the "Lab Notes" in the link Black Talon provides below. That's what I'm talking about.

TinMan:I think / believe these are what you meant. That said certain loads ( those that give higher vel in longer barrels) Tend to see a more precipitous drop in 2" barrels because you are blowing the power out the barrel ( great fireball ) but does not reach the same pressures to cause as great a velocity. 2400 is # 106 in burn rate while bullseye is # 10, the slower powders are used for "magnum" loads since trying to do the same with bullseye could create a GRENADE!!. Be Safe,

Corbon 140 6"= 1580 4"=1394 2"=911
6>4 =186 fps, 4>2= 483 6>2= 669

Here's a scan of the Speer pdf load data sheet for the 135 SBGDHP. Maybe this will help you:

http://www.black-talon.org/RKBA/ammo/Speer_357_GDHP_load_data_sheet.jpg

If you notice, that 135gr bullet out of a 2" .357 is mentioned at 1,000 fps in that little blue box.

It was designed for low velocity out of the 38 special at 860fps +/- but can be pushed to 1,000 fps in a magnum, with it's thin jacket.
For faster loadings Speer advised to use the 125gr GD that was designed for higher speeds to prevent separation.
Good loading.

Nevada Ed said:

If you notice, that 135gr bullet out of a 2" .357 is mentioned at 1,000 fps in that little blue box.

It was designed for low velocity out of the 38 special at 860fps +/- but can be pushed to 1,000 fps in a magnum, with it's thin jacket.
For faster loadings Speer advised to use the 125gr GD that was designed for higher speeds to prevent separation.
Good loading.

Click to expand...

Assuming the OP wants a defense load, and isn't trying to peg p-dogs, the 135 at a 1000 fps is a bad idea. Just because you can doesn't mean you should

From the text of the lab notes:
"...In a 357 Magnum, the velocity increase of 30-40 percent technically puts these bullets out of their optimum expansion range. Front end fragmentation, rather than true expansion, is the likely result...Not what's required for game hunting or defense, but near perfect for the very challenging sport of handgun varmint shooting...We cannot recommend these bullets for any 357 Magnum application requiring deep penetration and high retained weight after expansion..."

So, if you want explosive fragmentation and low penetration, go for it. Not what I would want in a defensive round, though. ymmv

The factory Speer 135gr Short Barrel .357 Magnum load uses that bullet at a reported @990 fps. I did some extensive research and load development with the Short Barrel .38 Special +P load but also did a fair amount of work with the Speer SB .357 Magnum load.

I used a Hornady 140gr XTP bullet for development because they are easier to find and cost a lot less. When I got done speaking someone at Speer and collaborating with a few other reloaders I did come up with a very good replica.

I used Speer .357 Magnum brass, CCI-500 primers and the Speer 135gr bullet over a charge of 8.8gr Power Pistol. That load is nowhere near the Max charge weight so it's safe and it feels a lot like the original. The AV for me is between 990 and 1000 fps. Of course using Speer brass isn't necessary but I had some. lol

glad I read this thread

I loaded some 135gr GD with 18.4 gr H110, mag primer and heavy crimp. They clocked at 1285 avg from a 4" barrel. I'm sure they would reach 1k fps from a 2" barrel. I"ll find out with the 15 I have left.
I" try some dialed down with the rest I have.
Thanks for the info!

Black_Talon said:

Here's a scan of the Speer pdf load data sheet for the 135 SBGDHP. Maybe this will help you:

http://www.black-talon.org/RKBA/ammo/Speer_357_GDHP_load_data_sheet.jpg

Click to expand...

Thank you very much for that data.

Here is another interesting thread which I wouldn't have found without the link to the "FBI Load" thread:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/70658-38-special-snubbies.html

Here are my tentative conclusions based on your posts and this data:
- 1,000 fps out of a 1-7/8" barrel is at the high end of reasonable expectations
- As low as 900 fps might be perfectly functional (will check with Speer)
- 2400 may be too slow for this application; hadn't thought about 3N37 but have some handy; want to try on of Accurate Arms powders as well
- I really need to buy QuickLoad software for my birthday
- I am not the only person who thinks that the Buffalo Bore +P .38 Special Load has very heavy recoil in an Airweight S&W

This has been very helpful. I will report back.

Just for reference, I've chronoed the 140 JHP Hornady XTP bullet at 1485 average fps, using 17.2 grs. 2400 out of a 4" barrel. CCI 550 small pistol magnum primers. OAL was 1.580.

Your OAL for these revolver loads is basically determined by the bullet's cannelure. Crimp the case mouth into the center of the cannelure. Then the OAL is what it is. Easy. If there is any difference after that, it's minimal and due to varying case lengths. If you're a stickler, trim them all to the same length. I don't bother.

I wouldn't throw out Sierra data. Those folks know what they are doing!

In my 686 6", I had no problem getting the 135gr up to 1005 fps using Alliant Red Dot powder and also Unique.

A maximum load in a J frame can be reached with w231 with a maximum loading but there were other powders that were better for lower pressures and +p speeds.
It seems this weight bullet is very easy to work with in all lengths of barrels, at least in all my test with different powders and revolvers.
My best accuracy load in the J snub came in at 851 fps.......
just 11 fps behind the factory loads. I could have added .2 grs more powder for a maximum load, but why?
Later.

One note;
My 6" 686 .357 magnum got better accuracy with a 38 special case from 860 to 1040 fps. (5 @ .91")
Best magnum case accuracy with the max Unique loading only gave 4 @ 1.67" at 25 yards off a rest.
A sleeper load with the Mag. case is 14grs of imr 4227 powder, if you have it.....but don't bother if you do not have any. I was just getting rid of it, since it does not work out in 99% of my loads.

I carry the 135 GDSB in 357 in my J frames and want to practice with something similar but much less expensive so I can shoot a lot.
factory 135 gr GDSB 357 Mag=952 fps from my 2.125" model 60
factory 135 gr GDSB 357 Mag=1132 fps from my 4''model 686

I could not find cheap 135 gr jacketed or plated so I got some 135gr SWC cast. I only care to make this for the short J frames so I went with the fastest powder I generally have on hand, Titegroup. 5.2gr gives me 937 fps and is very similar.

I know you are doing something different but I thought you may want to consider the fast powders.
Good luck

Just talked with a tech at Speer. He said that they got 990 fps out of a short-barreled .357 Magnum and 860 fps with a .38 Special +P load. Also said that they got the best accuracy from AA#7 in .38 Special and AA #9 or H-110 in .357 Magnum for this 135 grain bullet.

My original thoughts of 1,100 fps were unreasonable.

900-975 sounds like a much better target (pun intended) out of the M&P 340.

I am going to start with AA #7 and 2400 since I have both of those and they are in the right neighborhood in terms of burn rate. Also meter well.

Here are some velocity results I got testing factory and my reloads:

S&W 642 .38 SPL Gold Dot Factory 135 gr. 881fps, 893


S&W 642 .38 SPL reloads GD 135 gr. 807fps, 798, 785
6.4 gr. Power Pistol

S&W model 60,.357 Mag. Gold Dot Factory 135 gr. 1387fps
3” barrel

.357 Mag. Reloads, 9.6 gr. Power Pistol, GD 135 gr. 1222fps, 1226
S&W model 60, 3” bbl. with .38 SPL reload 894fps
6.4 gr. Power Pistol

BE Mike said:

Here are some velocity results I got testing factory and my reloads:

S&W 642 .38 SPL Gold Dot Factory 135 gr. 881fps, 893

S&W 642 .38 SPL reloads GD 135 gr. 807fps, 798, 785
6.4 gr. Power Pistol

Click to expand...

Mike, give a try with 6.8gr AA#5 and you will probably get the same velocity as the factory ammo. Like I said above, I did a lot of replica load development for the Speer Short Barrel .38 Special +P ammo. If you do please don't forget the range report.

ArchAngelCD said:

Mike, give a try with 6.8gr AA#5 and you will probably get the same velocity as the factory ammo. Like I said above, I did a lot of replica load development for the Speer Short Barrel .38 Special +P ammo. If you do please don't forget the range report.

Click to expand...

Actually, I'm happy enough with my reloads, using Power Pistol. I get no stuck cases or other pressure signs. I don't feel like the lower velocities, especially in .357 mag. are significant.

BE Mike said:

Actually, I'm happy enough with my reloads, using Power Pistol. I get no stuck cases or other pressure signs. I don't feel like the lower velocities, especially in .357 mag. are significant.

Click to expand...

Actually, I'm very surprised the velocities are that low. Is that M60 known to have a slow barrel? I have a M686 that will produce 100 fps less than my other .357 Magnum revolvers with the same ammo.

When I spoke to Speer they "suggested" I use AA#5 for the .38 Special +P replica load and Power Pistol for the .357 Magnum replica load.

All that means nothing if you're happy with the load you're using...

People are often so obsessed with trying what is "new and interesting" that they forget tried and true...Unique is an oustanding "fast-middle" powder for the .357 from a snub length barrel...and Blue Dot is next up...both are bulky flake powders that fill volume at lower charge weights, Unique is the faster---somewhat faster than AA7. Blue Dot is very close to AA7 - a tad slower.
With such a short barrel I would not use 2400, nor H110...both are too slow.
Since you have 135 grain slugs on hand, start with the load data for the 140 grain...with pistol slugs the bearing surfaces are usually very similar and the difference between weights is a piddling - statistically insignificant 3.6%. Considering factory weight variance could easily cause one "stated" 140 grain bullet to weight 138, while another comes in at 142, 135 is close enough AND it's BELOW the 140 weight.

With your barrel length, and the volume of the .357 case, resultant speed is primarily a function of the burn rate within the case...you're relying on that 40K psi average working pressure to deliver the goods versus a .38 spl's 17K. I'd go with magnum primers for that reason...they'll cause a faster pressure rise.