I've been reloading for about 30 years but have never loaded any lead bullets. I have loaded thousands of JHP and JFP's with mostly 296 win warm to hot loads. I need some suggestions on 158gr Laser Cast SWC. I want some light to medium loads for target shooting. I have plenty of 231win,700x ,titegroup ,hs-6,296 win (from what I see in manuals not good for lite loads)and a pound of Bullseye and 1lb of Longshot. Give me some suggestions . I would like some 700x (not alot of 700x onfo out there)and 231 loads because of that is where I have the most powder. Thanks!

I used 4.5 to 5.0 of 231 for 158 lead bullets and it works out pretty good. 4.0 to 4.5 is a good starting load.

I have used 231 and lead bullets for many years in 38 special. Check the WW site for suggested loads.

Bullseye and Titegroup are great powders for lead target to medium loads. The Lyman 49th manual has a lot of loads for lead and their"Cast Bullet Handbook" is all lead data.


BTW Unique is a good ole powder for lead and AA#5 has similar characteristics.

I use .38 special data for my .357 target loads. Mostly 2.8 gr Bullseye + 148 gr HBWC and 3.5 gr Bullseye + 158 gr LSWC, both in .357 cases.

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Common sense isn't so common.

5.5gr to 6.0 gr Hodgdon Universal is a good medium load with your 158gr LSWC bullets. Magnum primers are not necessary with this load.

When in doubt you can start a 357 light load with a maximum 38 special load in the 357 case and see what your loads do for you.

One of my manuals for a maximum 148gr BB or HBWC in a K frame, calls out for 4.0grs of 700X and 4.5grs of Bullseye for around 900 fps.

My J frame likes 2.9gr of 700X and just 3.1grs of Bullseye for a load around 790 fps.

4.5grs of w231 may work for you with the larger 158 Lwc bullet but 5.0grs of w231 in my 6" M19 K frame was all over the place and 4.7grs in the 38 case was equal to a +P load in this revolver.

Have fun.

I also shoot a Lot of .38s and .357 loads with W231

My go to is 4.6gr with the SWC Lead and RN Plated Bullets

Really good load, Nice pop and Very accurate in my S&W and Henry Rifle

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--Stav--

Hodgdon lists loads with both 700-X and WW231. I've always had better results with 700-X even if it doesn't meter very well.

I'm satisfied with 700x powder in my 38 and 357 FMJ loads with a Lee turret press. Cycling the turret results in some vibration of my disc powder measure. Loads over 3.4 grains have been very consistent, within .1 grain. I wasn't consistent when I tried loading in the low 2 grain range. Don't know how consistent my loads would be between those measures... and don't know your powder measure.

As long as your powder measure is consistent in your desired range, 700x would be worth a try.

Will

Buckeye
Laser cast lead is very hard and I found you'll need to move them pretty fast to get any accuracy. Here are the loads for the powders you have, that are in the Laser Cast manual - you can get it at their website and if you email them they'll email you back a pdf load table for a specific caliber.

HP38/W231 start 3.6gr/707 fps max 4.2gr/806 fps
Bullseye start 3.3gr/751 fps max 3.8gr/813 fps
Titegroup start 3.8gr/838fps max 4.4gr/943 fps
H110/W296* start 13.8gr/1225fps max 14.5gr/1296fps

*magnum primer

from my experience shooting 500 of their bullets out of my 6" 686 - accuracy wasn't any good under 1200 fps

you don't have the powder, but 2400 did great for me

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I'd like to agree with you BUT

"from my experience shooting 500 of their bullets out of my 6" 686 - accuracy wasn't any good under 1200 fps"

You must have not tried a 158 Lswc Oregon Trail in a 38 case with 3.3grs of Bullseye or 4.0grs of Red Dot?

However I do agree that that cast 158gr bullet in the 357 case at 1315 with Universal and 1320fps with Unique is a sight for sore eyes. I can't list the amount of powder used in my "L" frame, since it is a little "OVER" for a K frame.............

I use LaserCast (Oregon Trails) bullets in revolvers and rifles, up to 1800 fps without leading, no gas check. They are very hard, and need at least 13,000 psi to properly upset and obdurate.

I use Unique for short loads (.38 SPL, .44 SPL and .45 Colt), but a heavy load and slow powder, 2400, for .357 and .44 magnum.

Bullseye is okay for target loads, but it's best to use a soft lead bullet.

Nevada, you're right! I haven't tried the laser cast in 38 special cases, only 357 cases. Sad thing is I'm out of those bullets!

I plan on picking up some more and then I'll try it.

Actually I'm building a list of combinations I want to try from seeing your results. GreenDot? RedDot? Universal?

Proof is on your papers. But I won't go over max

You know, I'm going to end up with dozens of powders from reading your threads

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I'd like to agree with you BUT

Thanks for all the great input and keep it coming. I did not know that the Laser casts could be pushed so hard , I'll try some hotter loads than I planed . I have used 700x for 45acp rounds and like the results . The metering with the 700x is not bad with my old Lyman 55 and I did look at my Hodgdon info I had it did list some info that pertained to 700x. The Lyman 49th manual wasn't much help but it looks like I need to look into the cast bullet Lyman book. My Speer 14 th had the most reciepies for my lead combo Sierra and Hornaday were the lest helpful. Thanks again.

I thought I read something about 231 Win being position sensitive when using light amounts in the 357 mag case and that it was more suited for the 38 case? That is why I was leaning towards the 700x because it has more balk and is not position sensitive ?

I have used 700X in the past but no longer do cause of poor metering
qualities but a very accurate load in my 6" S&W md 28 was 4.0 grs in
magnum brass under a 158 gr cast RN at 829 fps. A few of the mid
range loads I have tried with the powders you mentioned, all with a
158 gr cast SWC in magnum brass chronographed out of my 4" md 28
are;
Bullseye, 5.3grs=1012 fps, 5.7grs=1057 fps, 6.1 grs=1089 fps.
Titegroup, 5.6 grs=1056 fps.
W231, magnum primer, 5.8 grs=1061 fps, 6.4 grs=1115 fps.
Longshot, magnum primer, 7.4 grs=1156 fps, 7.8 grs=1198 fps.

Plenty of lead load data here.
Cast Bullet Load Data

alwslate
the loads you gave for W231 (152%), Bullseye (160%) and Tightgroup (127%) are over the "NEVER EXCEED" in Oregon Trail's Laser-Cast load data. There testing was with a S&S M686 6".

I've attached their 357 section, they send it out upon request.

Attached Files

LC 357 Mag.pdf (79.8 KB, 272 views)

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I'd like to agree with you BUT

Of the 5 powders you listed three of them are my favorites. My powder trinity is W231(HP-38), W540(HS-6) and W296(H110). I can load any handgun cartridge with one of more of those powders.

For medium to medium hot 158gr LSWC .357 Magnum ammo HS-6 is probably the best powder for the job. HS-6 works very well with lead bullets and it will generate considerable velocity if loaded to the top of the pressure range. For light target loads which are more like hot .38 Special +P loads W231 will work very well. 5.2gr W231 under a 158gr LSWC in a .357 Magnum case and standard SPP is a great load.

Just be aware, those Laser Cast bullets are very hard so if you're getting leading you might be loading too light, not too hot...

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I've been loading 5.7 of universal with a 158 grain bullet and it shoots well. It was a lot more fun to shoot than I thought it would be and accurate. I bought it for 45 auto didn't like it so glad I found a use for it.

When I listed those loads I wondered who would be the first
one to get on here with a dire warning that they were "over
maximum". First of all I want to say that none are in any way
excessive loads for the 357 magnum. All are well within the
current reduced pressure standards for 357 magnum and
below published maximum charges. I don't know what
philosophy drives Oregon Trail's published load data but I
suggest that if you read a variety of loading manuals beyond
just scanning the load tables and read insightful magazine
articles you will gain an understanding of the difference
between a maximum charge listed and a maximum load.

Thanks again for great input. I going to give 700X the first go and 231 win because that is what I have the most of. I have a friend looking for some 2400 he's close to Fin Fur Feather Canton location. I have never heard anything bad about this old powder and I also want to try it on my 44mag , 296 win is all I ever used.

alwslate

do I win anything for being the first?????

In an earlier post, I quoted loads for Bullseye, Titegroup and W231 from their data. When you posted your loads, I noticed the differences. I merely provided a comparison of what is in the bullet manufacturer's data and yours and I attached their data. Even the NEVER EXCEED in capital letters is from their presentation.

From my experience, Laser Cast bullets perform differently than other cast bullets. They have BHN's at 22 or 24? most others are in the 12 to 18 BHN range.

Please note, I did not interject any of my opinion as to the loads Oregon Trail list in their data or the loads you listed. I really did not intend to raise a "dire warning" to you or anyone participating in the thread. My intention was more to point out a fairly significant discrepancy. Not everyone has Oregon Trail's load data. I almost added the question, "why do you think their faster powder loads are so low?" But decided I'd leave out my opinion.

I understand internal ballistics is a very, very complex issue and the more I read on the subject, the more I realize how even more complex it is. There are few things we, as handloaders, can control and even measure reliably with respect to hitting maximum pressures. I do use many load data sources, some old, some new and some from web based bullet and powder companies.

Personally, I usually give more weight to bullet manufacturer's data when I am using their bullets, and even more weight when their test gun is very similar to my gun. In this case a perfect match. I tried their Bullseye and W231 loads up to their max and when I got 6 inch groups, I moved onto a slower powder (2400), which to me is a better choice for their bullets anyway.

I do not know what drives their philosophy either, could be other considerations than maximum loads. I have been reloading for 2 years so I do not experiment when it come to min and max loads and I stay within the published load data from many sources.

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I'd like to agree with you BUT

Hodgdon Universal is sort of new and there are a lot of people that have not used it.

I have tried it in my 38 snub loads and also in the .357 Magnum with both 38 and 357 brass and found it to be a good, well mannered powder and with a clean burn.
If Unique powder falls off the face of the earth, I will have a back up that will work just as well.