Will these .38 Special loads actually expand?

STORMINORMAN · Mar 12, 2015

From the Hodgdon's site:

Using 110g Hornady XTP with a small pistol primer over approximately 5.2 gr. of either W231 or H-38 for around 1,000 fps. Note: these velocities are from a 7+" barrel.

Not the minimum nor the maximum for these two powders, which according to the manufacturer are identical.

Thanks in advance!

p.s. I'm pretty sure the suggested .357 mag loads for these powders @ 8-9 gr. and 1,500-1,600 fps will expand quite well: I'm looking for something a little milder but still effective to use in a Model 15 2" or a Model 19 2 1/2". Again the stated velocities are from a much longer barrel.

BE Mike · Mar 12, 2015

It used to be considered that 1,000 fps was the minimum velocity to get pistol bullets to expand. I don't know whether or not that applies to these particular bullets. I know that many modern hollow points will expand with less velocity. All that being said, I'm not a fan of 110 gr. bullets in the .38 or .357 mag.

robertrwalsh · Mar 12, 2015

New bullet designs are much better than they were even three years ago. I would guess the XTP will expand reliably at an impact velocity of 1,000 fps.

phonejack · Mar 12, 2015

This ought to help

scooter123 · Mar 12, 2015

Hodgdon is one of those powder manufacturers who use longer barrels to "hype" the velocity for those who shop by numbers. IMO you should expect your produced velocity to be in the 900-950 fps range fps range. Which means that you should consider increasing your powder charge a bit. Hornady shows a load tested using a 4 inch model 15 with 5.6 grains of 231 to produce 1000 fps with the 110 grain XTP. BTW, Max listed by Hornady is 6.3 grains so you should be well under maximum pressure.

rwsmith · Mar 12, 2015

The Speer Gold Dots...........

The 135 grain Speer Gold Dots (if you can find them) are made to expand at lower velocities. The Gold Dot series is excellent for SD. The 135 grain is designed to expand at lower velocities from a 2" barrel, but one test I read read said they didn't expand reliably at those velocities. I would think 1000 fps would be a pretty good speed for them.

Just as a PS: the FBI load used to be 980 fps so I just rounded up to 1000 to be sure. Therefore, the heaviest jhp (good ones) I can get to go downrange at 1000 fps or better is a good one.

colt_saa · Mar 12, 2015

STORMINORMAN said:
From the Hodgdon's site:

Using 110g Hornady XTP with a small pistol primer over approximately 5.2 gr. of either W231 or H-38 for around 1,000 fps. Note: these velocities are from a 7+" barrel.

Not the minimum nor the maximum for these two powders, which according to the manufacturer are identical.

Thanks in advance!

p.s. I'm pretty sure the suggested .357 mag loads for these powders @ 8-9 gr. and 1,500-1,600 fps will expand quite well: I'm looking for something a little milder but still effective to use in a Model 15 2" or a Model 19 2 1/2". Again the stated velocities are from a much longer barrel.

The test barrel is not as much of a length difference as you think. This is a single shot so length is measured from the breach face to the muzzle, this includes the chamber. Measured the same way your model 15 is about 4"

As scooter123 says, if the test barrel came in at 1000 your revolvers will still be over 900.

That old 1000 FPS rule of thumb goes back to the eighties or nineties. Projectile construction has changed dramatically in the several decades since then. The XTPs are pre-scored projectiles. This allows them to petal back and mushroom at a much lower velocity than jacketed projectiles of decades gone past.

The chart that phonejack posted is great. I was going to suggest one of the heavier projectiles. The 140 is a favorite of mine for the 38 Special cartridge.

Nevada Ed · Mar 12, 2015

The XTP bullet is a quality bullet but..............( post #4 )

If you think a 38 special JHP at only 800 fps or a......
9mm bullet at only 800 fps will expand.............
I have some property I need to sell you.

Just a heads up...........

Forrest r · Mar 12, 2015

colt_saa said:
As scooter123 says, if the test barrel came in at 1000 your revolvers will still be over 900.

Interesting!!!!????

A 2" bbl or a 2 1/2" bbl won't even be in the same ball park as a 7.7" bbl. A link to a website that does ballistics by the inch for a bunch of different calibers.

BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Results

Every bbl is different but you'll be hard pressed to get 900fps out of a 2"bbl when a 7.7"bbl is only doing 1000fps.

The picture in post #4 clearly shows the 38-110g xtp bullet functioning between 900fps & 1400fps. You might want to step up to a p+ load or a 357 load.

rwsmith · Mar 13, 2015

Test barrels....

Test barrels don't have a gap like a revolver does either. This is one reason I prefer a barrel length of 3" rather than a snub. If the 1000 fps was good 20 years ago, I figure it will be more than adequate with newer bullets. That's why I was surprised that the Speer 'short barrel' bullets didn't do well in that one test. No matter, I use bigger bullets anyway. 140 grains are good.

BE Mike · Mar 13, 2015

rwsmith said:
Test barrels don't have a gap like a revolver does either. This is one reason I prefer a barrel length of 3" rather than a snub. If the 1000 fps was good 20 years ago, I figure it will be more than adequate with newer bullets. That's why I was surprised that the Speer 'short barrel' bullets didn't do well in that one test. No matter, I use bigger bullets anyway. 140 grains are good.

I agree about the heavier bullets. I used a Super Vel 137 gr. JSP to take down deer, while shooting it out of a 4" S&W model 28. It performed quite well out to 50 yards with a well placed shot.

indie_rocker · Mar 13, 2015

phonejack said:
This ought to help

That's a great chart! I like using XTPs for reloading, they are almost always in-stock both locally and on Midway in most calibers. What I really like is how they specify the velocity needed for 158 grain 38/357 FP and HP to expand.

Nevada Ed · Mar 13, 2015

I saw one test with the CD Hornady 38 special 125gr poly red tip bullet.
They were shot out of a Ruger LCR 1.875" snub nose, into gel packs.
The Gel pack with 2 tee shirts and this 125gr bullet at 955 fps penetrated 9" and expanded to .49"

I have no idea what the lighter 110gr bullet would do..........
Later.

STORMINORMAN · Mar 13, 2015

Thanks for the responses!

Especially the XTP chart and the link to BBTI!

I found it interesting that the 158 gr. XTP would seem to expand at a lower velocity ( circa 700+ fps) than the 110.

ps. I am aware that one of the milder .357 mag loads for the 110 gr. XTP will expand.

Boogsawaste · Mar 13, 2015

STORMINORMAN said:
I found it interesting that the 158 gr. XTP would seem to expand at a lower velocity ( circa 700+ fps) than the 110.

I think it has more to do with the heavier bullet having more inertia pushing on the bullet once it makes contact with whatever it's shooting. Along the same lines of heavier bullets penetrating deeper than lighter, with all else being equal.

Forrest r · Mar 13, 2015

Actually it's the hp design and the alloy the core is made out of that mandates at what velocity it will perform.

hp design ='s:
The size/shape of the hp along with the depth of the hp. Along with the jacket's material, thickness & #/depth/length of the pleats in the jacket.

Alloy for the core ='s:
Anything from pure soft lead to #2 alloy to linotype. 5bhn/15bhn/22bhn

Some home made 150g hp's for the 38spl/357 made from 9mm cases (jackets) and 8bhn core.

The large wide/deep hp with pleats in the jacket and lead cores allows this bullet to expand anywhere from 700fps to 1000fps. Anything over 1000fps the hp explodes. Without the pleats that hp works in the 800fps to 1200fps range. And if I made the hp smaller/shallower with no pleats along with changing the alloy to 12bhn it would be an excellent hp for speeds in the 1000fps to 1400fps range.

Those same hp's pictured above pushed to the raggedy edge of what they can take, 1000fps. Those were shot into bundles of wet newspaper @ 50ft.

A different bullet, home made 265g hp for the 44mag. It still has a large deep hp and uses the same 8bhn alloy for a core. The difference is the pleats, they are shorter & shallower than the 38/357 bullets pictured above. Shot into wet newspaper bundles @ 25yds.

The 110g hp in this thread will struggle at lower velocities. The bullet mfg has to make a bullet that can cover a wide range of velocities. If it opens @ slower speeds it can't stay intact at higher velocities, not enough lead/core there to make a strong enough hp. And as you can see in the 38/357 hp's pictured above. When the hp separates/explodes it actually looses penetration.

But sometimes having a bullet explode is a good thing. Some 225g hp's for the 45acp. The 60g nose/hp is designed to explode/separate/shed in the 1st 1" of penetration and the body expands to a 1/2" meplate and keep going. This bullet will easily do 9"+ in bundles of wet newspaper.

Anyway a good hp for a pistol has to expand and still retain enough weight to be effective/penetrate.

Boogsawaste · Mar 13, 2015

^^^^Thank you for the clarification sir.

Nemo288 · Mar 14, 2015

Forrest R. :

Have you made or shot any of those brass swaged numbers base first?
I imagine they would be expansion proof similar to a solid and hit like a ton of bricks.
The experiment would test what their external ballistics are (if any)

Not sure they would fly very well.
Certainly as well as a wadcutter though.

Also: Do you anneal that brass before swaging it?
That might also effect it's performance.

Thanks!

===
Nemo

Forrest r · Mar 14, 2015

Yes I have & actually make a jacketed hbwc out of 9mm cases for the 38spl/357 and 40s&w cases for the 44spl/mag.

The brass is annealed and the cores bonded, 148g 35cal and 220g 44cal.

These were shot from snub nosed revolvers @ 50ft (38spl & 44spl) and are extremely lethal.

A cast 220g hbwc shot with the same load from the same snub nosed revolver for comparison.

Both the 220g jacketed and lead hbwc's loaded the same for target work in a 61/2" bbl'd 624.

Note the 220g jacketed hbwc in the upper right corner. That open area of the jacket (3/8" space between the top of the case and the lead core) acts like a cookie cutter and will easily slice thru a leather jacket and several layers of clothes. Because the core is bonded that area of the jacket turns into talons/knives that do extreme amounts of damage.

Been swaging my own jacketed bullets (mostly pistol hp's) since 1990. And I've only scratched the surface on pistol hp bullet making.

Gamecock · Mar 14, 2015

STORMINORMAN said:
I'm looking for something a little milder but still effective

You seem to be equating expansion with effective.

FBI Handgun Wounding Factors:

"Expansion accomplishes several things. On the positive side, it increases the frontal area of the
bullet and thereby increases the amount of tissue disintegrated in the bullet’s path. On the negative side,
expansion limits penetration. It can prevent the bullet from penetrating to vital organs, especially if the
projectile is of relatively light mass and the penetration must be through several inches of fat, muscle, or
clothing."

For a 110 grain bullet out of a snubby, expansion is not your friend. Expansion will make the round less effective, reducing its already marginal penetration.

Will these .38 Special loads actually expand?

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