My question is slightly off topic, but hope the mods will allow. I have a 1911 45 auto with fixed sights that I would like to shoot in local bullseye matches. For now I am reloading 215gr lead swc over 3.7 bullseye and with a six-o-clock hold, they are printing about 3 or 4 inches too high. I am trying to produce a handload that will make this correction for me. I thought about lighter bullets(185gr) or a lighter charge of powder(???). Can anyone suggest a simple solution or, is this not in the cards? Thanks in advance!

Faster bullets do shoot lower. If your sights are maxed out try using a 185 gr SWC at at higher velocity. 4" is a pretty big error to make up.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Lighter bullets with higher velocities usually print lower on target.

John

Lighter bullets tend to impact lower. Try a 185gr. SWC. If they impact high at the lowest charge that will function the pistol, increasing the charge should lower POI. It all has to do with the dwell time of the bullet in the barrel during the recoil cycle.

FWIW, increasing the charge behind the 215gr. bullet also should lower POI.

As stated, faster and lighter bullets will usually lower the POI (within limits). You just have to experiment to find out.

Three thoughts:

One thing to check with a 1911 shooting that high is to ensure the barrel is properly fitted to the slide. If the barrel link is too short, the barrel lugs on the barrel won't be fully engaged in the recesses in the frame and the pistol will shoot high. There are a lot of bubba'd 1911s out there...

If the barrel is properly fitted and you want to stay with this load, you'll want to install a taller front sight to bring the POI down. Going .031" higher will bring you down 3" at 50 yards, and going .042" higher will bring you down 4" at 50 yards.

Finally, 3.7 gr of Bullseye under a 215 gr LSWC is a light load in the 700-725 fps range. If you want to stay with a 215 gr bullet, try 5.0 grains to 5.5 grains of Bullseye with the same bullet (about 870 fps to 930 fps in a 1911). It will flatten the trajectory, and increase recoil, but it will also reduce the time in the bore and that should get you a lower angle of departure.

But...that's fast for LSWC accuracy in a 1911. I'd recommend a 200 gr LSWC at between 730-780 fps. Bullseye is a fine powder to achieve that and 3.6 to 4.3 grains with a 200 gr bullet should get you in the ball park. If you don't have a chronograph, use a standard primer, start at 3.6 grains and work up .1 grain at a time until you reach 4.3 grains and take the most accurate load in your pistol as your match load.

Once you've got the load, then worry about the sights.

So...

1) check the barrel fit,
2) work up the load for peak accuracy in the 730-780 fps range, and
3) raise the front sight to get you in the center of the bull with a 6 o'clock hold.

You didn't state the distance at which you are 4 inches high and that can be a critical factor on whether a change in bullet weight will do what you want. If it's at 10 yards or less you'll need a different approach. If its the traditional 50 yard stage for formal Bullseye Competition a light bullet will certainly be worth trying.

I'll also remind you that it's not "Cast in Stone" essential to level out the front and rear sights. Placing the front sight either below or above the rear sight is an old school method of "correcting" for fixed sights that aren't correctly indexed for either the distance or bullet weight. The only problem is that it does require a fair bit of practice and some concentration to get good results.

Try a factory-equivalent 230 gr.load. That is what the sights are regulated for.

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Pisgah

If you are going to shoot bullseye with a fixed sight gun of any type and expect the POA/POI to correspond you need to stay pretty close to standard ammunition for the caliber. For .45 ACP it is 230 gr. at ca. 900 FPS. This is achieved with ca. 5.0 gr Bullseye.

Where did you come up with the 3.7 gr load? Most 1911s, unless modified to shoot "Powder Puff" loads like this will not even function!

scooter123's question about range is pertinent. The issue is quite different if you are talking about 7-10 yds, compared to 25-50 yds.

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Gunsmithing since 1961

As always, I am thrilled with the many helpful replys I have received! Many thanks to all who offered their help. I neglected to mention that I will be using this Government Model Series 70 at 25 yards. It had been accurized back in the 70s by Austin Behlert who hand fitted a new barrel bushing, tightened and re-fitted the slide and also did an action(trigger) job that is outstanding. It still is, however, a commercial blued version of the GI Model 1911. It is tight, smooth and accurate and I would love to be competitive shooting it in 25 yard bullseye club matches. I will load some sample 185gr and 200gr loads at somewhat higher velocities than the 215gr Lyman loads achieved. I really just need to lower the POI by 3-4 inches at 25 yards in order to not embarras myself. Again, thanks to all who replyed!

PARDON ME, BUT ALL OF THE ABOVE REFLECTS THE USEFULNESS OF ADJUSTABLE SIGHTS ON A BULLSEYE GUN. THIS PROBLEM COULD HAVE BEEN SOLVED WITH A FEW CLICKS OF THE ELEVATION SCREW. IN NEAR 3 DECADES OF COMPETITION BULLSEYE SHOOTING, I NEVER ONCE SAW A COMPETITOR SHOOTING FIXED SIGHTS. THE REASON ? ? ? A FIXED SIGHT GUN IS NOT THE PROPER TOOL FOR BULLSEYE COMPETITION. THAT BEING SAID, I WISH YOU THE BEST OF LUCK…….

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

I did mention that IF the sights were maxed out that the load could be tinkered with.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I would start with the 185 and see how it shoots for point of impact and group size.

Are you shooting at 50 yards for slow fire?

I too am an old bullseye shooter. I shot many tens of thousands Lyman 452460 200 grain lead swc ahead of 3.5 grains bullseye. I used a lighter recoil spring.

The gun is capable of a 300 I was good for a 270 to 280 and some xs.

I think increasing velocity will hurt you in timed and rapid fire.

Some shooters I know used 3.5 bullseye for 25 yard line and 4.0 bullseye for 50 yard slow fire.

I used the same load for both and raised my rear Bomar up 6 clicks for 50 yards.

It's been my experience that changing the powder charge has almost no effect on the POI with a handgun load at 25 yards or less. Because as you reduce the recoil by going lighter you also reduce the bore transit recoil that is one of the critical factors in the produced elevation of a particular load. As hard as it may seem to believe I've seen 158 grain 38 special loads shoot to nearly identical POI as a full power 158 grain load so often I just don't full with powder charges in attempt to correct the POI with handgun loads. Now, with Rifle loads the powder charge can have an observable effect, but most of us are shooting rifles at distances where Ballistics do some into play. I would imagine in a 50 yard Bullseye stage doing some "tuning" of the charge level would be helpful.

I've also experienced having a firearm that was shooting high with the rear sight as low as it would go. In my case it was with a Rossi M92 that shot 5 inches high at 50 yards with the top of the bead for the front sight barely visible in the notch of the rear sight. In that case I purchased a taller front sight to solve the problem. Noshow may want to look into doing this. Because my hunch is that going to a 185 grain bullet won't get him where he wants to be. I shoot a lot with a Ruger SR1911 CMD with either a 185 or 230 grain load. In my case the 185 grain loads are loaded to my 45ACP carry load ballistics and the 230 grain loads are simple range ammo. What I've seen is that with the Ruger is that at 15 yards the 230 grain load puts the POI 1 diameter above the front sight and a Combat hold will put the 185 grain load on center. That is about a 3/4 inch shift in the POI between the two bullet weights. Granted at 25 yards the POI would probably shift a bit more but I don't think he'll see more than an inch at 25 yards between a 215 and 185 grain load. However, everyone varies in how firmly they manage recoil so it's possible that change may produce useful results.

Some good news is that an Official Bullseye target offers a lot of features that can allow a shooter to adjust their hold to compnsate for the sight regulation. Quite simply you just put in enough time to figure out where to place your sights to center your group on the Bullseye.

Are you using a 6 o'clock hold or center bull? It just occured to me that 3-4 inches high is half a 25 yard bull.

I once had a similar issue with a 1911 Commander fixed sight. Otherwise a fine-enough pistol for such as speed steel, it just gave me 4" LOW at 25 yard POA. The notion of changing to adjustable sights was too expensive.

By 'holding high enough' (above 12 o'clock position) I could get improved yet still unsatisfactory POI results. I discovered the scores while 'holding high' despite efforts were just too random for competition.

I loaded up some 200gr RNL at similar FPS and found a perfect load for the gun with fixed sights....which didn't make sense based on my 'rational understanding' of the ballistics involved. Somehow the POI moved up enough to score good hits.

I never did quite understand all the reasoning, but HOORAY for the results of 'custom loads' for specific needs!!!

Good luck in finding your solution....it's out there I'm sure!

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Dum vivimus Vivamas

No David, we shoot slow fire at 25yds as well. Now that you mention the Lyman moulds, I had both a 452460(200gr) and a 45266(215gr) and I can't swear which bullet I used for the purpose of this post. It most likely was the 215gr bullet, but I wouldn't bet the ranch on it. My labeling left a lot to be desired back in the day. If I can figure out how, I will post the slow fire target I shot at 25yds for critique. I failed to mention that when Austin Behlert accurized my Gov'nt Model, he also fitted a Gold Cup slide, which gave me adjustable sights. I put aside 45 matches to alleviate the asthmatic effects of bullseye powder residue entering my lungs. I sold the Gold Cup slide and regret it. So now, I'm trying to pick up where I left off to a lesser degree in an informal way. Thanks so much for your help

You could file the rear sight.....

David

I take it you're an experienced shooter, so please don't take offense: Have you considered your grip technique?

I'm a long-time shooter and I think (in my delusional mind) that I'm fairly good. I can tell when I'm getting lazy and/or tired. Shots will start to go high, or worse, high and left. Generally it's not the gun's fault; rather it's mine. Shots go high when I relax my hold. They go left when I get my palm around too far to the right. There are plenty of reasons for wild shots due to grip inconsistencies, but these two are my main foibles.

It's just that handguns are extremely sensitive to grip. I've read that many experts say grip and trigger control are more important that (gasp!) sight alignment. In my experience, that's exactly the case.

My 1911 , fixed sight G.I. Army issue replica, shoots to center of a bullseye target with a 6 o'clock hold just under the black bull, perfect for target shooting(I won a trophy with it)
Cast 200 grain SWC, Lyman #452460 over 5.2 grains Unique.
This isn't a light "powder puff" load but it does shoot to 6 o"clock of the black bullseye on a target. And it feeds, fires and ejects from a unmodified pistol with the standard weight recoil spring. Give this load a try. Hope this gets you on target.
Gary

If the gun shoots the load you have, you are happy with it, and it is legal in your competitions, by far the easiest thing to do is replace your front sight. Will take any decent pistolsmith about 15-mins, if he is taking his time.

In bullseye, reliability is paramount. If your load is reliable, adjust your sights. Lowering the rear sight about .030 will get you there. Use a file.
BTW, a 215 gr SWC is unusual. Most use 185 or 200 gr SWCs.

It would be nice if you get the load down enough to have some adjustment in your sights. I've heard of Kentucky windage so there must be a Kentucky (or some state) elevation.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"