Berry's Plated Bullets

Newbie question,gents.
Got some good deal on Berry's 300 grain S&W 500 bullets.
They don't have a canellure,are copper plated and I can't find any data on loading them.
I will use them in 8 3/8" barrel. Also, crimp or not to crimp ?
Thanks

Several Issues

Bullets without cannelures are usually taper crimped. The common wisdom with plated bullets is to use reloading data intended for lead bullets.

The absence of a traditional roll crimp might cause the bullets to move forward in recoil. all the more reason to load to modest pressure levels.

Welcome to the forum! I have used Berry's plated in .38 Special, .357 Mag, .44 Special and .41 Mag. I have kept my loads in the middle of cast bullet load charts. I "think" Berry's says not more than 1200 fps. I also taper crimp all of the plated bullets. Pretty sure someone will be along that can give more specific info for you.

Cheers,

Rick

From Berys FAQ page,

We do not research or publish the load data, but you can use any published load data for a jacketed or lead bullet as long as it is the same weight bullet. Any of the load data books or the powder manufacturers’ website should have that information for you, as long as you keep them under 1250 fps for our standard bullet or 1500fps for the bullets designated as TP (thick plate).

If a COL or OAL is needed please email [email protected] for further information.

We recommend very little crimp on the bullet, just enough to put pressure against the bullet without denting or deforming the plating. If you were to pull the bullet out of a case with the proper crimp you would find no more than a scratch on the surface of the plating. If you are denting or deforming the bullet your accuracy will suffer and the bullet may start to tumble before it hits the target.

I use the 350gr bullet for mine as it does have a cannelure so I crimp it as I would the 350 XTP JHP Hornady's I use for hunting and such..

500 S&W/50AE plated pistol bullets

Also the 300 gr bullet is good up to 2000fps like the 350gr... Berrys uses a heavier plating on the 500 bullets!!

500 S&W/50AE plated pistol bullets

If you feel that your loads would be 'better' with a cannelure, there is a hand tool made that puts a cannelure on any sized bullet. I have no experience with the .500 S&W cartridge, but lots with Berry's Bullets. With the thick plating put on the 500 bullet this cannelure tool should work very well.

Thank all of you for the input. Will try light taper crimp.
Loading with 12 grains of Titegroup and COL of 2.000''(Berry's suggestion)
Will let you know when I create ''the torpedo''. HAHA!

Please use an appropriate magnum powder when reloading the 500 S&W.

Use data from a powder manufacture or a bullet manufacture with a ballistic expert on staff that actually does pressure testing.


Good luck and be safe
Ruggy

I've tried Berry's in 9mm, 38 spl, 40S&W as well as .45 ACP. My experience is that a decent crimp is a must for consistency. I've also learned that bullet seating depth seems to have a bigger impact with these than with cast bullets. Usually a little deeper seating /shorter COL produces better accuracy for me. Careful there, deeper depths can spike pressures if your not paying close attention.

I use Berry's 350gr in my moderate 500 S&W indoor range loads & use Hornady's taper crimp die on them. Because of their poor sizing & uniformity I don't seat them to the cannelure.

If you seat them to the cannelure the seating depth (SD) is only .255" (COL=2.090") & in my 2-3/4" 500ES they jump crimp easily. I decided to increase the SD to .375" (COL=1.970"), which is almost the same as the SD when using the Hornady 350gr XTP (SD=.390") to try & increase the bullet-case tension. This helped but the 4th or 5th round still starts to jump crimp a little. (The Berry's don't have a consistent diameter along the bearing surface, widest at the base & narrower below the shoulder/ogive, which doesn't help.)

I still get good ignition & burn with all the powders I've used (Unique, Longshot, Bluedot, 2400) with them though, except I4227. They're mostly in the 1300-1500fps range, except the Unique, as listed in the manuals (using 8-10" bbls).

Accuracy is okay & since they're just fun loads at close range, their price is right but I wish Xtreme would start making 500 S&W bullets for this reduced loads.

.

I don't know who started this internet myth about too much crimp damaging the plating on a plated bullet but they deserve a good hard punch in the nose. I also wish folks would cease repeating something they have read on the internet but haven't actually confirmed for themselves.

As someone who is an Engineer in both temperament and training I ALWAYS do some testing and verification when starting a new endeavor. When I started using plated bullets I naturally experimented with different amounts of crimps and found that it was NOT possible to "crack" the plating on a quality plated bullet, even with a roll crimp applied with enough force to buckle the case on a 38 special. Method used to determine this was a 20X loupe and a bullet pulled from a buckled 38 special just showed a groove created by the crimp but NO CRACKS IN THE PLATING. Also shot those pulled bullets after reloading them in fresh cases and they didn't cause any noticeable leading.

I'll also point out that every one of Speer's bullets has the "jacket" applied by an "electro chemical process" per an informational page found on Speer's web site. Folks, that is simply a more scientifically accurate description of plating. I can also state with certainty that Federal Champion and Speer Lawman TMJ both use plated bullets, because I have broken down samples of both of these commercial ammunitions.

Finally, I've chronographed my loads and found that with the produced velocities corresponded with data for jacketed bullets and NOT with data for lead bullets. While I don't have any means of measuring produced pressures my training in Practical Physics indicates that plated bullets should produced pressures will also correspond with the data for jacketed bullets. Think about it, a copper Jacket can be expected to produce the same level of friction in a barrel as good layer of copper plating, so why would anyone ever consider that using data developed for a lead bullet to produce results correspond to a plated bullet.

The bottomline is this, load to the maximum recommended velocity for the bullet you are loading with using data derived from that for jacketed bullets and leave the data for lead bullets for lead bullets. According to Speer it is possible to "squib" a plated or jacketed bullet if too light of a powder charge is used and in general data for lead bullets trends to lighter charges than data for jacketed bullets. When I'm using plated bullets I'll use interpolation to determine an estimated "maximum" charge for the 1200 fps max limit normally recommended and regard that as the maximum, even if it's actually a mid range charge for a jacketed bullet. I am also a believer in starting low and working up and have found from experience that a sample load of just 5 or 10 rounds really isn't adequate to determine anything beyond relative velocity. There is a hint there that any new load should be at least 25 to 30 rounds so you can get a good indication of accuracy and function.

Very informative indeed!

scooter123 said:

...As someone who is an Engineer in both temperament and training I ALWAYS do some testing and verification when starting a new endeavor. When I started using plated bullets I naturally experimented with different amounts of crimps and found that it was NOT possible to "crack" the plating on a quality plated bullet, even with a roll crimp applied with enough force to buckle the case on a 38 special. Method used to determine this was a 20X loupe and a bullet pulled from a buckled 38 special just showed a groove created by the crimp but NO CRACKS IN THE PLATING. Also shot those pulled bullets after reloading them in fresh cases and they didn't cause any noticeable leading.

I'll also point out that every one of Speer's bullets has the "jacket" applied by an "electro chemical process" per an informational page found on Speer's web site. Folks, that is simply a more scientifically accurate description of plating. I can also state with certainty that Federal Champion and Speer Lawman TMJ both use plated bullets, because I have broken down samples of both of these commercial ammunitions.

Finally, I've chronographed my loads and found that with the produced velocities corresponded with data for jacketed bullets and NOT with data for lead bullets. While I don't have any means of measuring produced pressures my training in Practical Physics indicates that plated bullets should produced pressures will also correspond with the data for jacketed bullets. Think about it, a copper Jacket can be expected to produce the same level of friction in a barrel as good layer of copper plating, so why would anyone ever consider that using data developed for a lead bullet to produce results correspond to a plated bullet.

The bottomline is this, load to the maximum recommended velocity for the bullet you are loading with using data derived from that for jacketed bullets and leave the data for lead bullets for lead bullets. According to Speer it is possible to "squib" a plated or jacketed bullet if too light of a powder charge is used and in general data for lead bullets trends to lighter charges than data for jacketed bullets. When I'm using plated bullets I'll use interpolation to determine an estimated "maximum" charge for the 1200 fps max limit normally recommended and regard that as the maximum, even if it's actually a mid range charge for a jacketed bullet. I am also a believer in starting low and working up and have found from experience that a sample load of just 5 or 10 rounds really isn't adequate to determine anything beyond relative velocity. There is a hint there that any new load should be at least 25 to 30 rounds so you can get a good indication of accuracy and function.

Click to expand...

I have to say... EXCELLENT post!

I too am "an Engineer in both temperament and training" and although I have not yet completed the level of hands on testing you describe, my analysis and observations on the question of whether plated should be loaded more like lead or more like jacketed mirror yours exactly. It's always good to have confirmation of your thought process by a fellow engineer.

I only wish I could give you more than one "like" for it.

Mike I wasn't kidding when I stated I was unable to crack the plating in 38 special. The simple truth is that the case buckled and that attempt to cut the plating was a complete failure. Perhaps it might be possible with a 45 ACP case because a shorter, larger diameter case will require more force to cause it to buckle (see Euler's Buckling Theorem and Equation) but who puts a roll crimp on a 45 ACP. BTW, bullets tested have been Rainier, Berry's, and Extreme and all featured plating I would consider excellent. Personally I suspect that this whole "cracking the plating" thing started with the copper washed bullets common to the 22 Rimfire. Those feature a layer of copper thin enough you can often still see the lead underlying the copper.

Now, if you don't believe me then just do some testing for yourself. All it will cost is a few cases buckled beyond repair and a 10 dollar 20 X triplet magnifier picked up at a gun show. Once you see how difficult it actually is to cut through the plating on a bullet from Berry's you'll come to the same conclusion that I have. That is that today's plated bullets can be considered Jacketed bullets for reloading purposes as long as you limit the produced velocity within the recommended limits set by the manufacturer.