Reloading 38 Spl’s using Rainer 125 gr.plated flat points over 4.3 W231 in cases that have been used a bunch of times; just a weak plinking load and one that should be easy and straightforward.

Last year after sustaining some embarrassing moments on the range due to my reloads not “snicking” easily into my cylinders and having to force a few of them in, I started running my completed reloads back through my initial re-sizing die after the bullets were fully seated and crimped. Bullets thereafter dropped in very easily and problem solved, or so I thought.

Well, today while reloading and repeating the re-sizing operation on my seated and crimped reloads, I noticed that a couple of the bullets were pulled up when exited from the re-sizing die. “What the heck?”, or words to that effect and investigation ensued. I found the following:

1. Following the “final” re-sizing operation just about all of the plated bullets could be rotated in their re-sized cases and some could be manually pulled up and out of the cases.
2. Bullets that had not been “finally” re-sized could not be manually rotated or pulled up.
3. All non-resized reloads fit well into my test cylinder; they passed my GO-NO GO test; no apparent reason for the re-sizing operation this time.
4. Checking a few of last year’s reloads: same thing. Re-sized, reloaded cartridges with plated bullets were found loose in their cartridge cases.
5. However, re-sized, reloaded cartridges with un-plated bullets (also reloaded last year) were tight in their cases; could not be manually rotated or were able to be pulled up.

So what’s up with this? I would appear that my secondary re-sizing operation on this year’s reloads are unnecessary and probably doing me no good. I haven’t yet experienced recoil bullet shifting locking up my revolver, but I wouldn’t bet on it not happening. If the bullets are shifting under recoil, I doubt that it’s doing anything good for the repeatability of the pressure profile and it thereby would adversely affect my accuracy. Perhaps another alibi, but one that I’m responsible for.

Just wondering if anyone else has seen this condition with plated bullets and what steps were taken to eliminate it. I would prefer to keep using plated bullets, but not at the expense of severely impaired accuracy.

Thanks to all who persevered my long winded story here posted and to those will take the time to respond. –S2

Don't resize a case using a regular sizing die with the bullet in the case. Why? The brass will spring back and the lead won't, thus leaving the bullet loose. The sizing die is intended to make a press fit between the case and bullet, which must be done before the bullet is inserted.

Check that your loaded cartridges are straight, and the crimp is just sufficient to completely remove the flare.

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Science plus Art

Re-sizing usually ruins the crimp and I don't know any reloaders who do this as a standard practice.

If you're having problems chambering some rounds, this is usually due to over-expanding the case mouth. When you do this it's difficult for the crimp die to get the case mouth down to the right size. Over-expansion can also ruin good case neck tension which has more to do with holding the bullet in place than does crimp. Fact is, you don't need any crimp at all with light .38 Sp. loads. Good case neck tension is what you want.

Press fit=good case neck tension.

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USAF, 69-92
Vietnam, 72-73

Speedo2:
I had a similar occurrence recently with Berry's plated 125 gr FP in Federal .38 cases. I have successfully reloaded the same .38 brass many times with 125 gr JFP, 148 gr LHBWC and 158 gr LSWC. I also had no problems with the first few reloads using Berry's plated bullets. I have not adjusted the crimp on my seating die, but only adjust the depth of the seating for the Berry's. I had a similar "bulge" just below the roll crimp. I thought about re-running the charged bullets in my sizing die, but instead elected to pull the bullets. The plating had cuts, so I probably had too much roll crimp. Not sure how or if that might cause the bulge, but I have a Redding roll crimp die on the way. I have seen plenty of posts which strongly recommend crimping as a separate step from seating. Using a separate taper crimp die for my .45s have made them better, so my thought is that crimping as a separate step can't hurt and might solve my .38 bulge problem. I hope to receive my .38 roll crimp die in the next week or so. I may post a follow up.

And, if you apply too much crimp you will bulge the brass case making it hard to chamber.
Adjust your die to put just enough crimp to hold the bullet....more is not better. Set for a light light crimp and adjust untill the bullet is held in place.
Then you should not need the "final" resizing. Which causes the loose bullet...it's not the correct way to solve the problem.
Gary

Resizing a loaded round..a NO-NO..

You need to correct the initial load procedure.

My guess is you are deforming your cases because of to much crimp.

It takes a small bump to crimp after the bullet seating depth is achieved.

To much crimp grabs the bullet and case and buckles the case.
44 mag is my worst culprit.

This is the problem with the LFCD in some instances, it resizes the case & you get brass spring back & a loose bullet. Adjust your dies properly, use them properly, no LFCD or post loading resizing is needed. Any caliber round can suffer a loose bullet form over crimping. Worst is probably the 357sig because of the short neck.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Never loaded 357 Sig.. but I bet it's real sensitive to this.

I load rifle and to much crimp=no go into chamber.

I don't roll crimp anything without a crimp groove. Unless you adjust it only enough to remove the flair, you're going to deform the bullet, even if you do it as a separate step.

It's not against the law to use a taper crimp with revolver rounds. With your bullet I would taper crimp, in a separate step.

The aforementioned Redding Profile Crimp Die is sort of a combination of a taper crimp and a roll crimp. I have one in .38/.357. Mostly useful for the heavy Magnums, but also usable in any situation. Profile Crimp Dies for auto cartridges are just an ordinary taper crimp.

I had something similar happen to me. I had a batch of old "Western" headstamped 38 Special brass that my late grandpa reloaded years ago. My uncle shot them out of his 38 and I took the brass.

The bullets fit really loosely into these cases. I thought the brass might be really thin. I did not know what the issue was. I pushed a bullet into the case too far with my finger (testing the neck tension) and had to use a hammer type bullet puller to get it back out. After crimping, I could still "spin" the bullets with my finger.

I have not had issues with other brass, so I suspect the issue is with the brass.

Mike

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NRA Certified Pistol Inst.

Thanks for the quick responses, guys. Sounds like my seating and crimping operation was off; probably too much crimp slightly deforming the cases.

I now understand that re-sizing is not the way to correct the deformed cases and that the loose bullets are probably the results of "sprung-back" brass coupled with "squeezed" lead. I will be looking for one of those Reading crimping dies in the near future.

Any thoughts on why the un-plated bullets don't show the same looseness? I'm guessing that bullet lube may be sticking to the inside surface of the cases, thereby preventing them from rotating.

I use a 9mm taper crimp seating die for seating plated bullets in my 357 and 38 special loads.

You know I've never tried that but that would work. All the major manufacturers do make taper crimps specifically for all the revolver rounds so I'm not the only one who uses them.

"Back in the day" it was somewhat popular to double crimp - first taper then roll - on the heavy Magnums if one had problems with the bullets moving under recoil. The Redding Profile Crimp just combines the two.

Actually the 357SIG would be immune to this since the various "Final Sizing" operations would never touch the neck

The Lee FCD is a superb choice for the 357SIG as it imparts a collet crimp to the cartridge. It works exactly the same as any of the LEE FCDs manufactured for bottleneck cartridges and like all LEE FCDs for bottleneck or rifle cartridges there is no carbide sizing ring.

Using the LEE FCD greatly expands the range of useable projectiles for the 357SIG cartridge

about the only time you'd want to do this is if your breaking down a batch.

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it just needs more voltage

I use the Lee Factory crimp die on 9mm and 40 cal. I have never experienced a loose bullet . In fact I have never had any problems using Lee factory crimp dies in 223 , 308 , 30 CAL and the two prior mentioned rounds. But I guess when you said " in some instances " it has not applied to me .....Yet.

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Not so Free in the Free State

Talking about two diff things. If you over crimp on the 357sig, you get a bulged case neck, loose bullet. The lfcd for the sig is NOT the same thing as those used for other pistol rds. You are correct, it does nothing to resize the bullet inside the case. Though I never claimed that, you are correct to point out the diff between rifle & pistol lfcd.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Again, rifle & pistol, separate things. Mixed brass & lfcd in pistol, often causes more issues than It solves. I never used one, wanted to see what it was all about, so did some accuracy tests with my best 1911.
What I found was a slight accuracy loss with jacketed, big diff with plated & no real change with cast lead. So anything that produces less accuracy isn't getting used with my ammo. 50ft off a rest.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

You do not get a bulged case, no matter how much crimp you apply with a collet crimp die since the projectile is not being pushed further into the case during the crimping procedure.

You are not comprehending. You are right, a collet style crimp die won't over crimp, unless you adjust if too far down. You could still crush the short nock. A std taper crimp die can over crimp, any caliber, I've done it.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Yup, that Lee Factory Crimp Die has caused lots of problems for me...such as when do I find time to shoot all those thousands of flawless reloads (and nary a loose bullet in the bunch).

Like glenwolde said, the Redding Profile Crimp is just a modified roll crimp die. Since you already have a roll crimp die I'd suggest you just get a true taper crimp die for your 38/357 plated bullets instead. I've got Lyman's taper crimp die for all my revolvers cartridges that I shoot plated bullets in & I like it.

Lyman Taper Crimp Die 38 Special, 357 Magnum

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Waiting for the break of day

I have mined and melted 10+ five gallon buckets of bullets the dirt berm at the outdoor range. Don't worry about "scratching, cutting, peeling, or stuck in the barrel" problems from over-crimping plated bullets.

I have to use a shovel in my bullet melting pot (old steel wok) on the turkey fryer to get lead to flow out of the plated bullets. The lead plating has to be 'broken' to get the lead to flow out. I have liquid lead inside the soft plated jacket.

The exception I found was 200 gr SWC 45 acp bullets. I shot 4 boxes of 50 yard practice and then mined the bullets. The bullet noses all had the lead rubbed off from hitting the sand. Those bullets easily melted leaving the empty plated shell.

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S&WHF 366

Well , now I can't complain on accuracy using the Lee Factory crimp die. The upper holes you see were AK rounds. That group is 22 rounds of 9mm at 30 yards.

Attached Images

9mm30yards.jpg (66.6 KB, 17 views)

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Not so Free in the Free State

Yup, that happens with me. I used to use the Lee factory crimp die (full length resizes the cases after the seating operation) in all my pistol calibers until I started powder coating 40 and 9 bullets. I still tumble lube 38/357 and 45 ACP and using the Lee FCD works fine, but 9 and 40 powder coated bullets were so loose, I was able to pull them out of the case with my fingers.

I bought Lee taper crimp dies which do not have the resizing ring and the pull-out problems went away. Yes, it says they aren't necessary, but I like to crimp on a separate station after seating and my LnL AP has a free spot anyway.

I finally realized that my 40 S&W and 41 Mag L-FCDs had tighter spec'd diameter carbide rings (.420" & .432", respectively, using pin gages) than my other caliber FCDs. No matter what brand, or type, of bullet I loaded they aways tried to size them. The others rarely did, but I never noticed the problem you mentioned, though I don't doubt you.

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Waiting for the break of day