Higher Velocity from Berry's Bullet Help!

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marathonrunner

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Guys, I have a question that seemed to stump even some gunsmiths. Hopefully someone here can help. I been using Berry's Bullets but with BE86 Allient Powder. Been told given the same powder charge say 5.7gr, a plated bullet like Berry's will go anywhere between 5% to 8% higher velocity than a Copper Jacketed. That said, assuming we are using 9mm FMJ vs 9mm Plated=

1. Will I feel any difference in recoil given same powder charge and same 115gr weight? I am estimating the plated bullet is going 100fps faster than copper jacketed

2. The fact plated bullets will achieve higher velocity than copper jacketed, will this mean more wear on the gun? I am thinking powder pressure will do more harm than higher velocity.
 
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marathonrunner said:
Guys, I have a question that seemed to stump even some gunsmiths. Hopefully someone here can help. I been using Berry's Bullets but with BE86 Allient Powder. Been told given the same powder charge say 5.7gr, a plated bullet like Berry's will go anywhere between 5% to 8% higher velocity than a Copper Jacketed. That said, assuming we are using 9mm FMJ vs 9mm Plated=

1. Will I feel any difference in recoil given same powder charge and same 115gr weight? I am estimating the plated bullet is going 100fps faster than copper jacketed

2. The fact plated bullets will achieve higher velocity than copper jacketed, will this mean more wear on the gun? I am thinking powder pressure will do more harm than higher velocity.
Click to expand...

In my opinion No and No. Of course felt recoil is personal and subjective.

My answers are based on extensive experience shooting .45 ACP, 10MM Auto, 10MM short (also called 40 S&W) and 9x19MM handguns.
 
I'm certainly no expert on reloading, but the first thing that passes through my mind is what data you are loading to. Plated bullets are supposed to be loaded to either high end lead data, or mid range jacketed. They are not jacketed, and should not be loaded to max jacketed data.

The only actual data I know of to compare the two is Hogdgons loading data. They have data specifically for one of Berry's bullets in 9mm and you can compare that data with data for similar bullets in jacketed. Of course, the max loads for a given powder are not the same for the Berrys and jacketed.

I am seeing similar max velocities. Some powders have a little higher velocity for the plated, and some higher for the jacketed.

In theory, with the same powder load, lead should give the highest velocity, plated should be slower, and jacketed the least. Of course, there may not be one powder load that falls within the safe range of all three.
 
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The max velocity of Berrys is recommenced at around 1200 fps. You are supposed to load them at mid level FMJ loads or use lead data loads for them. They sell millions of them so I really do not understand your question?

Don't worry load and shoot:D

Still waiting for our COFFEE!
 
A 5% increase in bullet velocity would result in about a 4% increase in recoil velocity an 8% increase in recoil energy. An 8% increase in bullet velocity would result in about 7% increase in recoil velocity and 14% increase in recoil energy.

The 9mm is fairly light recoil anyway, so whether or not you could feel these differences is questionable.
 
Your Berry's plated are going to be slower than bullets of similar weight with copper jackets. I have personally observed this and have read articles where they found the same. For bullets of similar weight, lead will be fastest, followed by jacketed, and then plated. I don't know where coated bullets fall.

So for a given charge, you would feel less recoil because your plated bullets will be slower than the same charge pushing a copper jacketed bullet of the same weight. The difference will be much less than the 100 FPS you are expecting. In my experience the plated are usually around 10 FPS slower.

Mike
 
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Vortec MAX said:
Your Berry's plated are going to be slower than bullets of similar weight with copper jackets. I have personally observed this and have read articles where they found the same. For bullets of similar weight, lead will be fastest, followed by jacketed, and then plated. I don't know where coated bullets fall.

So for a given charge, you would feel less recoil because your plated bullets will be slower than the same charge pushing a copper jacketed bullet of the same weight. The difference will be much less than the 100 FPS you are expecting. In my experience the plated are usually around 10 FPS slower.

Mike
Click to expand...

Critical Defense is supposed to be 1140fps at the muzzle. I loaded using Berry's 115gr with Alliant BE86(6.1gr gives you 1219fps) but trying to match Critical defense I used
5.7 = 1152fps if my math is correct. But the Berrys had a much more noticable recoil felt. The Critical defense kicked less. I even put in my magazine 8 rounds of critical and 8 rounds of my Berry's and berry's defininitly had more recoil so I don't know if that means the bullet is going faster then 1140fps. Maybe 10fps can be felt
 
marathonrunner said:
Critical Defense is supposed to be 1140fps at the muzzle. I loaded using Berry's 115gr with Alliant BE86(6.1gr gives you 1219fps) but trying to match Critical defense I used
5.7 = 1152fps if my math is correct. But the Berrys had a much more noticable recoil felt. The Critical defense kicked less. I even put in my magazine 8 rounds of critical and 8 rounds of my Berry's and berry's defininitly had more recoil so I don't know if that means the bullet is going faster then 1140fps. Maybe 10fps can be felt
Click to expand...

theres no way you'd feel 10FPS ... I doubt you could discern 1140 from 1200.
now, understand that you are running on your own guesses and assumptions. Numbers on a box of ammo are not necessarily what you will get out of your gun. The same is true of reloading data.
 
I'd have to go along with the logic presented by 427mach1. Same weight bullet accelerating slightly faster = slightly more opposite reaction force against the gun (a.k.a. recoil), and since the velocity difference is small, the difference in recoil will be too - probably too small to notice unless your actually using instruments to measure it.

As I understand it the reason for the general recommendation to use mid-range jacketed bullet data when loading plated bullets is that in terms of traveling down the barrel, the copper plated bullet interfaces with the rifling the same as the copper jacketed bullet. BUT the thin copper coating on plated bullets can't handle the MAX velocities of the thicker bonded copper shell on jacketed bullets. So you need to "back down" from the max jacketed load recipes down into the mid-range for jacketed bullets.
 
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Venonballistic, I am not disputing what you are saying but at the range using same gun, Berry's seemed much more felt recoil and the Critical Defense was supposed to be 1140fps at the muzzle. 5.7gr of BE86 is on the lower end of the load data for BE86. On another thread a guy used 5.9gr of BE86 and said that felt snappy but 5.7gr felt like a Plus P round.
 
Without a chrono of those bullets out of your pistol with your powder charge, estimates really aren't worth a lot. Neither are estimates of comparable velocities for plated and FMJ.

Don't know whether the proposed increased velocity is real (I haven't seen any significant differences), or if real whether it comes from increased pressure or decreased friction. So there may be some increased recoil. But IMO it doesn't matter because in all likelihood you won't feel it.

===============================
Direct from the Berry's web site:

Berry's Premium Plated Bullets are swaged and plated to final weight and re-struck for accuracy and precision. They are more affordable than jacketed rounds and won't foul your barrel with lead.

COL = 1.130"

Can withstand velocities up to 1250 fps.
===============================

So I doubt you'll have any issues using plated 9mm out of a 4" barrel with BE-86 up to max load of 6.1gr.
 
marathonrunner said:
Venonballistic, I am not disputing what you are saying but at the range using same gun, Berry's seemed much more felt recoil and the Critical Defense was supposed to be 1140fps at the muzzle. 5.7gr of BE86 is on the lower end of the load data for BE86. On another thread a guy used 5.9gr of BE86 and said that felt snappy but 5.7gr felt like a Plus P round.
Click to expand...


Felt recoil is part psychological.
two rounds loaded to exactly the same velocity but one having a strong muzzle blast will not be perceived the same way.
 
As has been said, without a chrono, everything is a guess. The same loaded round will have different speeds with different pistols. The published speeds are relative and only valid for the pistol that the manufacturer shot said load out of. The $150 or so that a chrono costs will be one of the best investments a handloader can make. I got by without one when I was shooting minor power factor loads. I just loaded middle of the published data and chose the most accurate load. When I was chronoed at Lever II or III matches, they turned out to be 136 PF (bullet weight x velocity divided by 1000) Once I started shooting major 9 power factor, a chrono wasn't optional anymore since I was loading past published data. My competition (and practice) load is 172 PF (124 gr bullet at 1400 fps. I use RMR match plated). The upshot of this long post is "Get a chrono, it makes load development safer and a lot more fun!" :D
 
"....5% to 8% higher velocity than a Copper Jacketed." (quote)

A lot depends on the barrel length and wear per those figures....
As for the 100fps gain....
My 3.5" with 115 plated reached 1263 and a Speer GD 115 got 1208fps. That is only 55 fps difference with the same powder.

Recoil....
I have had loads with a ES of 80 to 115fps. I don't think you will notice the difference with a pistol that weighs over 32oz.

Berrys are good to go at 1200fps and hvy. coated to over 1250fps but why... that is +P area.
Plated is a target bullet and does best from 1140 down to 900fps.......... giving low recoil and also saving powder and wear and tear.
 
While felt recoil may be subjective I can see where one would notice an increase in recoil if....

The bullets being used were of larger diameter say... .357 vs. .355

The plating of the bullet causing more friction in the barrel for some odd reason.

The OAL of the cartridge were was shorter than specified.

Or OAL reduced by the taper crimp not being tight enough during the chambering of the cartridge after being banged around in the magazine prior to firing.

All that being said, a small increase of velocity (less than 50 fps) wouldn't result in a huge noticeable effect on the perceived recoil. This is just my opinion and we know how much that's' worth.... eh?
 
Vortec MAX said:
Your Berry's plated are going to be slower than bullets of similar weight with copper jackets. I have personally observed this and have read articles where they found the same. For bullets of similar weight, lead will be fastest, followed by jacketed, and then plated. I don't know where coated bullets fall.

So for a given charge, you would feel less recoil because your plated bullets will be slower than the same charge pushing a copper jacketed bullet of the same weight. The difference will be much less than the 100 FPS you are expecting. In my experience the plated are usually around 10 FPS slower.

Mike
Click to expand...

Mike, I think that the difference in velocity you have observed are more likely a result if a minor difference in size or bearing surface area instead of the jacketing type. Basics Physics would predict that the difference in friction generated in a barrel using a copper jacket material can only be a result of a difference in size or the area of bearing surface contacting the barrel. Whoever told the OP that plated bullets "run" 100 feet faster was misinformed and when he finally gets around to purchasing a chronograph he will see that for himself.

Now, I will admit that I have only done one direct comparison between plated and jacketeds bullets of t he same "type" but what I observed with my chronograph was that they were what I would consider equal. In my case it was a 40 caliber, 180 grain Truncated Cone Flat Point and what I saw in a 5 round comparison was a difference that was more likely the result of simple variation rather than a difference due to one bullet being plated and the other featuring a cast in jacket construction. However in 380, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP I've found that using data for Jacketed bullets is a good predictor of what will result when loading with plated bullets.
 
marathonrunner said:
I been using Berry's Bullets but with BE86 Allient Powder. Been told given the same powder charge say 5.7gr, a plated bullet like Berry's will go anywhere between 5% to 8% higher velocity than a Copper Jacketed.
Click to expand...
.
FWIW, this test says that the plated where the slowest.

How Fast is your Bullet?

Your question is an apples to oranges comparison.

(Apples don't like being compared to oranges.) ;)

.
 
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BLUEDOT37 said:
.
FWIW, this test says that the plated where the slowest.

How Fast is your Bullet?

Your question is an apples to oranges comparison.

(Apples don't like being compared to oranges.) ;)

.
Click to expand...
You might want to look at that data a little more closely.

Unless I'm reading something wrong, or there is a misprint in the page you referenced, your statement is true for the 230gr 45 ACP, but for the 124gr 38 super (which is a lot closer to the 115gr 9mm the OP is asking about) the Speer plated was faster than both the Montana Gold and Remington FMJ...

So really, comparing the 45acp to the 9mm is kinda apples and oranges.

But comparing the 38 super to the 9mm is more like a granny smith and a golden delicious ;)
 
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